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5 hours ago, kerdios said:

 

Start at 21 min if you want to skip the preliminaries, and see the actual meat of the video.

 

I see nothing in this I disagree with. (especially the mob mentality stuff)

I'm full of shit

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On 4/15/2020 at 5:23 PM, BTGBullseye said:

I see you're one of those CLI purists... A GUI is designed to BE those scripts and one-liners, so you don't have to type them. It's so you can click a button to run that script instead of having to type the script name to run it. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire purpose of the GUI, its functionality, and its capabilities.

Except you can not, I have yet to see a GUI that can be extended in that way, and even if there is, they probably handle composability very very badly.

In a shell you can compose everything very easily, I can use find to list all the files with a specific filetype, and then grep to search for a string in them, and count the number of files that contain that string. This is a very basic example so yes many file managers will be able to do but that's only because it is built into the file manager, but there are many many other features that you may need but are not built into them (or other programs).
Here's a better one, a few days ago I wanted to count how many hours of movies I have downloaded for various reasons, so I just wrote a script that did so in a few minutes.

#!/bin/bash
var=0
echo "Calculating..."
while read -r line
do
	var=$(python -c "print($var + $(ffprobe -show_entries format=duration -v quiet -of csv="p=0" -i "$line"))")
done < <(find . -iname \*.mkv)
printf "%s hours\n" "$(python -c "print($var / 60 / 60)")"


Another example, yesterday I wanted to organize my torrents, so I moved some into another folder using transmission's ui, only to realize the transmission only moved the torrents' content, not the files I had also created in their folders (which makes sense I guess), again the fix was easy, use rsync and shell globbing to automatically sync the two folders and then delete old ones ` for i in *; do rsync -axuv --remove-source-files --progress ~/Drive/"$i"/ "$i"; done`.
Something that would've taken half an hour (~100 torrents) took 3 minutes.
GUIs just can't be composed like that, and those tasks may seem pretty rare, but similar ones come up often enough that GUIs lack of ability to perform them is extremely annoying.
Also, who said that you have to type everything? why not have them bound to keyboard shortcuts and aliases? 😛 
Again, I'm not saying CLI is the end all be all interface (try creating a movie or a 3d model with a CLI lol), but it is just that it has a lot of merits that shouldn't be ignored, and that will potentially be lost if linux ever goes "mainstream". 

Edited by ym123 (see edit history)

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On 6/10/2020 at 2:13 PM, ym123 said:

Another example, yesterday I wanted to organize my torrents, so I moved some into another folder using transmission's ui, only to realize the transmission only moved the torrents' content, not the files I had also created in their folders (which makes sense I guess), again the fix was easy, use rsync and shell globbing to automatically sync the two folders and then delete old ones ` for i in *; do rsync -axuv --remove-source-files --progress ~/Drive/"$i"/ "$i"; done`.
Something that would've taken half an hour (~100 torrents) took 3 minutes.
GUIs just can't be composed like that, and those tasks may seem pretty rare, but similar ones come up often enough that GUIs lack of ability to perform them is extremely annoying.

Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V, go back and Shift-Del the originating files. Takes me all of 10 seconds if I'm going slow. Even maintains folder trees without issue. You're really not well versed in GUI capabilities or current functionality if you think that it doesn't have the ability to do stuff like that.

On 6/10/2020 at 2:13 PM, ym123 said:

Also, who said that you have to type everything? why not have them bound to keyboard shortcuts and aliases? 😛 

That's what a GUI is supposed to be. It's basically just mouse gestures and clicks to perform functions that you would otherwise have to type. If it's not doing that, there's something very seriously wrong with your GUI design, since that's been how it works since the first ever GUI.

On 6/10/2020 at 2:13 PM, ym123 said:

it is just that it has a lot of merits that shouldn't be ignored, and that will potentially be lost if linux ever goes "mainstream". 

It has many merits, but so many pitfalls that it's never in any situation going to become the primary UI for a majority of users. It will always be an extremely small minority that prefer it to GUI. The CLI will not be lost, no matter what. Even MacOS and Windows 10 have a CLI in them, but it's never used as the primary interface because it's slower to type text than it is to click thrice and move the cursor around the screen for a second or two for the vast majority of people, even those with fast typing speeds.

I'm full of shit

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On 6/1/2020 at 7:14 PM, BTGBullseye said:

Start at 21 min if you want to skip the preliminaries, and see the actual meat of the video.

 

I see nothing in this I disagree with. (especially the mob mentality stuff)

This makes me wonder why is Valve bothering with Proton and Microsoft with Ubuntu terminal if Linux desktop has no future? (In case of the terminal, I guess it could ease up working with linux servers but I don't know much about that.)

 

On 6/10/2020 at 10:13 PM, ym123 said:

...

What you said about file manager having the feature built in applies to shell as well. Shell can't search through the files, grep can. Shell is just a way of running applications and transfering data between them. The same thing in desktop environment looks like dragging file into application, saving output somewhere and dragging it into another application. File manager could then be compared to collection of file managing commands like ls, cd, mkdir etc. So, the equivalent to GUI are command line parameters, not shell.
As I see it, the difference between shell and desktop environment is that you can write sequence of x application calls on one line and I didn't see desktop which could do something like that. It seems possible though, allow selecting multiple applications in transparent manner and drag a file into it, assuming the applications can drop their output straight into next application.

Application which has GUI is often usable from shell too and I agree that shell will always be here thanks to developers for who it is easier to write a script solving their immediate problem than developing a reusable application. Which is fine but writing scripts is outside of average user capabilities.

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6 hours ago, Plegyvap said:

This makes me wonder why is Valve bothering with Proton and Microsoft with Ubuntu terminal if Linux desktop has no future? (In case of the terminal, I guess it could ease up working with linux servers but I don't know much about that.)

I think it's because it's pretty clear that Microsoft intends to move over from a standard Windows kernel, to a Linux kernel. That's why 10 is the "last version of Windows", because they plan on moving everything to Linux in a decade or so. Makes sense when you look at it from that point of view doesn't it.

I'm full of shit

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It does now. So Linux will actually become dominant desktop OS, sort of. It will be like what happened with Android on mobile devices. Hopefully it will lead to easier crossplatform development which could mean more applications being available to both Windows and Linux.

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Pretty much. It would unify the #1 server OS and the #1 desktop OS, and improve both in a very lucrative way. Makes perfect sense for them to do this. They may lose a lot of control over the base OS, but they save on having to deal with security vulnerability testing, as well as make it easier for everyone that wants to do anything with or to the OS, like custom UIs, or security patches that don't require a reboot of the system.

I'm full of shit

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That does sound exactly like the "Embrace, extend, extinguish" phrase to me, though that may be a bit outdated now. Also, the Linux kernel is GPLv2, so there's only so much they could do. That only becomes a problem with permissive licenses, e.g. MIT (like FreeBSD has). I don't think changing the kernel outright would be very feasible for consumer builds of Windows, since backwards compatability is still extremely important for Microsoft (feel free to prove me wrong, however; they did want to change the ecosystem with UWP).

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Well, Microsoft has been pushing pretty hard for becoming the main "distro" for Windows programs, and this sort of move would definitely make it easier for them. They wouldn't need to control the kernel at all. Just let someone else do all that hard work, and build on top of it. Shifts blame away from them if the kernel has issues too.

 

As for the backwards compatibility, most of the really hard work has been done with WINE anyways, they just need to step in with a few small pieces of code to make it all come together, then you'll have that as well.

 

It's pure win-win for them, (and their shareholders) and benefits their customers as a side effect. This is the sort of move they can do without losing at all.

I'm full of shit

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