Jump to content

Religious Discussions Thread!

Sign in to follow this  

Recommended Posts

Those 3 things are a literal death sentence in parts of the world.

 

Same with Christians. Hell, as of 2016, Christians are the second highest group that are being persecuted/killed.

+1

 

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/

Christianity is also one of the single largest demographics in the world, probably THE largest demographic that people choose to take part in, so naturally I have some questions. What counts as persecution and in what contexts? How is it even remotely possible, let alone practical to measure persecution when, according to your source, something as petty as verbal harassment, or just general hostility counts as persecution? What are the persecution statistics per capita? Why is there so much discrepancy regarding Christian murder statistics? I've seen a statistic of 90,000 murders published quite a few times, but I don't recall any of the articles published ever saying that these murders were as a result of their faith.

 

According to your source, I've crunched the numbers and roughly 1 in 570,000 Christians are killed for their faith per year, meaning that in the United States ALONE, you're ten times more likely to be murdered for being trans. I'm not here to downplay the shit Christians get in various parts of the world, but I live in the United States, and I'm definitely part of a more marginalized and persecuted group relative to location. Hell, if you wanna use this website's definition of persecution, I've been a victim of persecution by Ninja himself when he was part of the Discord. I don't personally agree because I'm not that petty, but the discrepancy and general lack of Christian persecution statistics leaves doubts in my mind.

 

We're getting sidetracked here though, the point is you're not being oppressed or persecuted for your faith right now, you're just playing the victim card and it's not working.

Share this post


Link to post

And what is your definition of "persecution"? Mine comes from the dictionary, and fits perfectly accurately to this particular situation.

Share this post


Link to post
And what is your definition of "persecution"? Mine comes from the dictionary, and fits perfectly accurately to this particular situation.

I'm not entirely sure what this information changes. If anything, it serves to reduce the severity of the point you were trying to make because you're lumping actual atrocities in with bad words and a sour attitude. This is the same thing that I dislike so much about the tumblr-brand "social justice" as it only ends up hurting more people than it ever helps.

 

I don't doubt that everyone in this topic has faced some form of "persecution" by the strict dictionary definition but turning it into a contest of who the most oppressed person here is is dumb and an awful way to conduct a discussion. It's an act best summed up by a line in the opening song from 1776 the musical: "Piddle, twiddle, and resolve; not one damn thing do they solve." Yes, I know I technically started it but my intention was never to say that an atrocity is not an atrocity if some other group has it worse. I was simply trying to convey that if general negativity is the worst you face for your beliefs/orientation/whatever, then you're in a much better position than you think.

Share this post


Link to post
And what is your definition of "persecution"? Mine comes from the dictionary, and fits perfectly accurately to this particular situation.

You are delusional if you think what you're facing right now is persecution. If you want to go by a dictionary definition, Oxford and Merriam-Webster both define persecution as hostility or unfair treatment due to differences in political/religious beliefs, race, sex, or social outlook. I assure you that if I come off as hostile towards you right now, it's not because you're a Christian. Remember Blue? He was cool, he was charismatic, I LOVED that guy and one of his favorite topics of discussion was his Christian faith. Difference is he's open to civil and rational discussion and you're not.

 

And you've missed the point of mine and Rarity's posts. You're playing a victim card where it has no validity. You're not being persecuted, you're just trying to find a way to cop out.

Share this post


Link to post

FYI, I'm still in regular contact with Blue on Steam, and he said one of the reasons he left was your attitude towards Christians in general... Wasn't a place he wanted to have to deal with, instead of enjoy. Don't try to use him as your "I have black friends, but" argument. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

 

Also, your definition is off by a significant amount... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecute https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suffer

I have to suffer through your persecution, just to be able to discuss religion with anyone here.

 

You might want to look into your hostility issues if you're bringing them here just because I'm here as well.

Share this post


Link to post

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cherry_picking

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anonymous_authority

 

You don't particularly have the moral high ground to be calling out a logical fallacy.

 

And for the love of god no one here is persecuting you. You posed an argument that we see inconsistencies with or disagree with, and we respond in kind. But instead of providing a sound counter-argument or some kind of evidence to support your claims, you pick out the easiest stuff to respond to and either post a nonanswer or misdirect the subject and frankly that's incredibly frustrating and insulting when some of us actually like to do our research about something we're going to respond to. And to claim that you're being persecuted for your beliefs when we attack your methods of argument needs to stop. It's possibly the most insulting part of it all, to everyone participating in this discussion AND to those who are actually being persecuted for their beliefs.

 

Again, no one here is attacking your beliefs. We're attacking your arguments and your methods of going about them.

 

And cut it out with the unnecessary, condescending jabs. That's a blanket statement for everyone. It's the root of all hostile responses.

Share this post


Link to post
FYI, I'm still in regular contact with Blue on Steam, and he said one of the reasons he left was your attitude towards Christians in general... Wasn't a place he wanted to have to deal with, instead of enjoy. Don't try to use him as your "I have black friends, but" argument. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Friend_argument

 

Also, your definition is off by a significant amount... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecute https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suffer

I have to suffer through your persecution, just to be able to discuss religion with anyone here.

 

You might want to look into your hostility issues if you're bringing them here just because I'm here as well.

 

Except you've had no issue pulling the "I'm not racist, I have black friends" card on me before, and there's quite a huge difference between "I'm not racist, I have black friends" and "I don't have issue with your demographic, I have an issue with you."

 

What a shame Blue feels that way though, I'll have to take that up with him personally when I have the chance. That said, get off your high horse and stop playing the victim card. It's clearly not working, and clearly still a cop-out.

 

 

and to be clear, I never gave you MY definition of persecution. I gave you a summary of the definition very same Merriam-Webster dictionary you just linked. Of course you had to link the more broadly defined word to fit the narrative. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecution

putting this in spoilers because we're getting side-tracked as-is. There's still an entire 2 posts worth of points Rarity and I made a page ago that you either nitpicked or ignored. The reply I'm expecting to those points is a week overdue.

 

Share this post


Link to post

I think you should refrain from posting in serious discussions in the future until you're ready to properly commit to a discussion.

Share this post


Link to post

Here's my responses to the questions posed.

 

I'd call myself a "Unconventional" Polytheist/Pagan. I say unconventional because I do not subscribe to any set of Gods or beliefs from any singular culture or doctrine, I merely am of the belief that many Gods exist, that they're likely of the absentee gardener variety for most cases, and that there are supernatural elements within the world. I reached this conclusion after formerly being an agnostic and seeing enough evidence in my mind to be convinced that such things must exist on some level. I also find it to be the more interesting way of interpreting these things and love reading through old myths, beliefs, and traditions.

 

I've current read through Norse, Irish Celtic, Ukrainian, Circassian, Ancient Iranian, Ancient Indic, Ancient Greek, Ancient Roman, and small bits of Ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian myths and religious stories. I know bits of religious traditions in a couple African cultures (Witchcraft and Sorcery beliefs basically) and Ancestor Cults of East Asia. I was raised very loosely Protestant, and have a fair understanding of Christianity, and the basics of Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Judaism.

 

I'm first and foremost a rational thinker, I do not put my beliefs ahead of a more convincing reasonable explanation. For example, I do believe in evolution, I believe that the scientific method is the best means of generating reliable and trustworthy knowledge about most of the universe which all can understand, and I'm not much of a serious practitioner in my religious beliefs so it may help with my mindset.

 

For many supernatural events and phenomena that I see or hear about, I put them to the logical test of David Hume's Theory on Miracles, for anyone curious (an Atheist himself, it was his theory on how a supernatural event could be potentially be considered real).

 

I'm also of the opinion that you cannot force your religion or irreligion onto someone else. Religion is a very personal thing, and not something that you can necessarily explain to someone else and have them immediately understand and relate to. Its something that develops with a person with time and experience as well as knowledge, by and large. I'm more of a fan of letting a person come to their own spiritual beliefs that resonate with their understandings rather than to abide by a set dogma, but if its their choice, I don't care so long as they try and force their religion on me.

 

My experiences with people of other faiths? Usually fairly amicable, but at the same time I've been able to dodge most religious discussions or they don't really come up around me that often. I did throw a couple of Divinity College students for a loop when I was in University and they went around asking about peoples' religious beliefs (taking the spiritual pulse of campus as a project I assume) and I told them mine, I probably had the more interesting response out of most of the people they asked just from how uncommon it was. They tried to ask me a bunch of questions about my faith and how much I knew about Christianity specifically, tried to get me into some kind of Bible studies group, go figure.

Share this post


Link to post

So, i'm going to share my beliefs, see what others think. I want to stress that this has only come to me within the past 6 months or so and before then i was a pretty hardcore atheist.

 

Anyways, my view (to boil it down as simply as i can) is that there's a "great truth" out there. A higher (or lower) plane of existence that is as real as the world around us, but we can't directly experience it. This reality, this truth, affects us in ways we usually don't notice or can't see. Religion, all around the world, is tapping into different parts of this great truth. Every single one are ways that people deal with this great truth that they can't understand, adding stories, characters, narratives, interpretations, and can only express what they know through the lense of their own experience

 

It's like:

 

[truth]

l

l

l

v

[Filter of human experience]

l

l

l

v

[original words of a prophet, shaman, ect.] - - - - - > Stories, legends, interpretations, rules

l

l <- Things that are inconvenient for the ruling power

x

 

So in a sense, every religion holds some shard of this great truth, but it's muddled and buried, and entirely possible that even if someone had 100% pure intentions to record what they experience as accurate as possible, it could still get muddled because the only way humans can experience this great truth is by relating it back to what they already know. And beyond that, over time this shard of this great truth gets buried even further as time goes on as the story itself changes.

Share this post


Link to post
So in a sense, every religion holds some shard of this great truth, but it's muddled and buried, and entirely possible that even if someone had 100% pure intentions to record what they experience as accurate as possible, it could still get muddled because the only way humans can experience this great truth is by relating it back to what they already know. And beyond that, over time this shard of this great truth gets buried even further as time goes on as the story itself changes.

You should read the book of Daniel... It describes what appear to be helicopters and MLRS launchers in terms that he could relate to. It's a great example of "we don't have words to describe this yet".

Share this post


Link to post

A recent study came out, polling Americans thusly:

 

"Fill in the blank: Christians are ______________"

 

Top results were: anti-gay, judgmental, hypocritical, power-hungry, and the list didn't get much better after words like those. I live in Canada but I presume the opinions here are not all that different.

 

Considering the fact that Christians, according to their own holy book are supposed to be "loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle and controlled" [Gal.5.25-26], as a Christian I'd say: 1. if that's the overall impression then it's a legit criticism, and therefore 2. then we're doing a pretty fucking terrible job being 'little Christs'.

Share this post


Link to post

Indeed. It also doesn't help that a lot of people claim to be a "christian" without having been baptised, gone to church, or read the bible, and the masses assume they represent the entirety of Christianity.

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, BTGBullseye said:

Indeed. It also doesn't help that a lot of people claim to be a "christian" without having been baptised, gone to church, or read the bible, and the masses assume they represent the entirety of Christianity.

Yes this a failure of perception. But what I'm talking about is those who claim to be christian are not acting christ-like.

 

I read a book recently: the proportion of churches in the United States and the number of children in the US Foster Care system is roughly 1:1, there's about 300 000 of each. If each church adopted 1 child (that is, if one family from each church), then the US Foster Care system would be evaporated in under a year. Assuming that these adoptive families are healthful and wholesome for the new adoptions, this would eliminate thousands of young people from several kinds of vicious cycles (criminality, drug additions, teen pregnancies, which begat more into the foster care system), generate more happier youth, and liberate millions of dollars from US gov't social program funding for other things. That's one way we could show the world that Christianity helps.

 

Christians invented the hospital, education free at the point of delivery, egaltarian sexuality, singleness as a viable way of life, orphanages, the steam engine, and many other great things. But the general sardonic remark made by secularism is "what have you done for people lately".

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in the community.

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.