THE GUI SHOULD BE BETTER

[Cyberhunk]

9 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i've also seen people who are into computer tech, who are elderly, who even though, have used computers since they existed, they still struggle to do really basic shit, and the truth is, that most people are kinda dumb, and in most cases, most people aren't curious enough to find out, what those other buttons do, and a ton of people lack even the most basic level of intuition, meaning that, those buttons half the time, just sit there unused for most people, just because the buttons are included in the hardware, it doesn't mean that most people actually use them for much of anything

The same could be said of right click. This resonates with me, since I've tried to teach family members how to use computers effectively, and even to those who were relatively intelligent and were able to grasp that searching on the internet and on your hard-drive were different things, how to favorite webpages, and even a couple hotkeys were completely foreign to something as simple as right click, so I get where you're coming from. However, that doesn't mean that we should stifle the possibilities of interaction because a fraction can't figure out how to use buttons that their fingers are already resting on.

16 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

plus my point was more about, the idea that if the whole user interface can be controlled with just two buttons, that it's probably pretty well made in the first place, a ton of user interfaces, force you to use hotkeys, and i personally hate hiding functionality behind a hotkey, unless it's really generic, like the esc key to open a menu

Simplicity is a beautiful thing, don't get me wrong. I'm just of the belief that more can be accomplished faster when there are more input methods. Two additional mouse buttons I think is the maximum one should have for a standard anyway, since any more will border on the obtuse by conventional standards. And I can agree, a Graphic User Interface should consist of GRAPHICS! What a thought, right?

Plus, two additional mouse buttons could be enough to allow developers to adapt. I'd much rather fiddle with the ~5 buttons on a mouse than the 100+ on a keyboard.

17 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i feel like a ton of UIs have really finnicky camera systems most of the time, where you need to click 20 buttons just to get the camera to behave, how you want it to, and that's just bad design

As someone who jumped from GZDoom Builder to Blender, I know this pain all too well.

[Cyberhunk]

51 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

controllers are cool because it's all just one thing, and we basically lack the equivalent of the directional pad, and we don't have an analog stick

I've been advocating for an analog stick+mouse solution for YEARS and I've only seen lackluster implementation, mainly due to a lot of games wanting to switch between controller inputs and KB+M inputs on the software side. It's great because it's another form of input that's the perfect bridge between a binary keystroke and the smoothness of a mouse movement. Perfect for page scrolling, controlling a camera, or movement in a game. I even sometimes use my PS4 controller for browsing the desktop since it can have similar accuracy to a mouse with the gyro controls.

1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

so the only thing that's left in theory is to, pretty much make the keyboard feel redundant, and to just basically delete it from existence, and to force the mouse to do everything

That's definitely one way to go about it. I'm sure if you trained hard enough you could type just as fast with a keyboard with a modern controller if it was implemented and thought out well. Look up Steam's petal typing interface if you want to get an idea of what it could be like. I still disagree since there's undoubtedly ergonomic value that a lot of people are already very well acquainted with when it comes to the keyboard and having a bunch of zippy movement across a gamepad could be faster, the straightforwardness of the keyboard isn't going away anytime soon.

43 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

anyway my last point is that, we can make good UIs if we wanted to, we just lack the hardware to do it properly in the first place

 

also i badly want a joystick on a mouse, it would help SO MUCH

Couldn't agree more, which is why I'm such an advocate for virtual desktop environments and hypothetical technology that doesn't exist yet.

You could also get a simulated directional pad on a mouse very easily by allowing the scroll wheel to tilt left or right, giving a similar enough functionality to a dpad.

[Cyberhunk]

46 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

okay i found this to be really ironic, but that mouse is advertised as a GAMING mouse but man, that mouse screams productivity to me

 

and i was thinking, no way, this looks like it could be used for 3D modelling or something

AND LOOK WHAT I STUMBLED ON, JUST AS I WAS THINKING ABOUT THAT

Wouldn't surprise me, I found out about VR OS just from searching, "Virtual Reality OS" because Virtual desktop wasn't cutting it and I knew there had to be something better, even if it was in its infancy.

 

I see a lot of potential here, but I fear it'll have the same software conflict issues previous attempts to bridge the gap before. The tilting looks dope, but it could have the problem of being accidentally triggered if you're trying to use your mouse regularly. If they could add a tilting scroll wheel it would arrive somewhere near my ideal mouse.

[Amplifier]

Made this account today for this express purpose, please hear me out here.

 

This whole blog post, alongside Ross's video has sparked a bit of a GUI revolution for me, to the point where I've spent nearly a week straight customizing and optimizing my setup. (Ignore the "CLEAN" in the bottom right, I don't have access to any useful image-editing software and had to rip this from some 3D modelling site to better capture what I was imagining while working on it)

 

It's amateur and fairly barebones, but that's likely because I've been almost gimping myself through the whole thing. So far, the only meaningful changes I've made have been integrating Rainmeter and RadialMenu into my arsenal. See, I'm still a bit iffy on actually changing the default shell to anything else because I: 

1. Am mildly paranoid of the whole thing bricking by fault of Microsoft©™®
2. Lack confidence in any one given shell alternative, even after heaps of research

 

So this is almost a cry for help if anything. I need someone here to either convince me to change my shell (preferably with a strong recommendation), find a way a to make this and this act almost one-to-one, or a Rainmeter wizard needs to chime in and give me some pointers for beautification. That second part especially, because RadialMenu is SO GODDAMN CLOSE to working the way I think it could and very much should. It was originally developed with drawing tablets in mind, but got expanded to include just about anything. If anyone here could point this lowly wanderer of the vast emptiness that sits right outside GUI heaven in the right direction, please let me know.

 

Thanks.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Amplifier
Missed ONE word (see edit history)

[testman]

There is this thing that has been appearing on my radar recently.
I know that it's meant to be more as a joke or spectacle than an actual user interface, but maybe something actually usable will come out of it:

 

[centersolace]

On 10/14/2020 at 8:01 AM, RaTcHeT302 said:

anyway my last point is that, we can make good UIs if we wanted to, we just lack the hardware to do it properly in the first place

 

also i badly want a joystick on a mouse, it would help SO MUCH

 

EDIT:

 

WAIT WHAT THE HELL?? THIS DOES EXIST???

 

https://www.amazon.it/Lexip-Neptunium-Innovazione-Regolabile-Programmabili/dp/B084CRKMS9/

 

WHY THE HELL ISN'T THIS THE STANDARD FOR EVERYTHING

 

I WANT IT, I MUST HAVE IT

 

 

 

Probably because it's only available in europe. I can't find anywhere that will ship to the USA.

 

 

On 10/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, Amplifier said:

Made this account today for this express purpose, please hear me out here.

 

This whole blog post, alongside Ross's video has sparked a bit of a GUI revolution for me, to the point where I've spent nearly a week straight customizing and optimizing my setup. (Ignore the "CLEAN" in the bottom right, I don't have access to any useful image-editing software and had to rip this from some 3D modelling site to better capture what I was imagining while working on it)

 

It's amateur and fairly barebones, but that's likely because I've been almost gimping myself through the whole thing. So far, the only meaningful changes I've made have been integrating Rainmeter and RadialMenu into my arsenal. See, I'm still a bit iffy on actually changing the default shell to anything else because I: 

1. Am mildly paranoid of the whole thing bricking by fault of Microsoft©™®
2. Lack confidence in any one given shell alternative, even after heaps of research

 

So this is almost a cry for help if anything. I need someone here to either convince me to change my shell (preferably with a strong recommendation), find a way a to make this and this act almost one-to-one, or a Rainmeter wizard needs to chime in and give me some pointers for beautification. That second part especially, because RadialMenu is SO GODDAMN CLOSE to working the way I think it could and very much should. It was originally developed with drawing tablets in mind, but got expanded to include just about anything. If anyone here could point this lowly wanderer of the vast emptiness that sits right outside GUI heaven in the right direction, please let me know.

 

Thanks.

 

....what am I even looking at?

[centersolace]

21 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

@centersolace i can't be arsed to quote the post but, i guess this, but the readability is terrible lol

 

 

 

Yeah, it looks like a game screenshot not an actual ui.

[ardru]

Greetings!

 

I'm also not happy with most GUI's, but I have managed to assign a mouse button to moving/resizing windows, and also to close windows and kill applications. So if an application is frozen and does not respond, I can kill it with a mouse button + scroll up: killing an app closes all its windows at once, which is kinda cool.

[centersolace]

10 hours ago, ardru said:

Greetings!

 

I'm also not happy with most GUI's, but I have managed to assign a mouse button to moving/resizing windows, and also to close windows and kill applications. So if an application is frozen and does not respond, I can kill it with a mouse button + scroll up: killing an app closes all its windows at once, which is kinda cool.

This makes me wish operating systems had a "kill all non-essential tasks" option.

[etai_dade]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:04 AM, Ross Scott said:

If you ever wanted to know all my thoughts on the GUI, here you are!  This has honestly been brewing in my mind for decades and while this video took way too long to make, it's an accomplishment for me that I was able to put this into something coherent.  I'm really hoping this leads to somebody bestowing GUI enlightenment upon us, though I'm not betting on it.

This post also doubles as a thread for people to post any helpful information regarding my GUI quest at the end of the video.  Thanks in advance for anyone who finds some answers!

 

This is a blog post. To read the original post, please click here »

 

I don't know how I didn't see this video before, but I actually made some drawings of my "perfect gui system" a while back and I remember I kept refining the whole idea over a year, only to be disapointed when I actually went to set it up in windows because, well, windows is a customization pain. I'll have to find the papers again, they're in a bin somewhere, but I do know for a fact I have them. I'll go looking.


Also forgive me if I violate some "internet form laws" I don't know about, new to this shiz.

[testman]

Does anything here looks like an example of UI that Ross is looking for?
 

 

[kerdios]

22 minutes ago, testman said:

Does anything here looks like an example of UI that Ross is looking for?

It's been a while since I watched the Ross video, but I don't think this has anything to do with it.

[testman]

Interesting radial menu:

https://github.com/Schneegans/Fly-Pie/

[Steve the Pocket]

On 10/14/2020 at 10:46 AM, Cyberhunk said:

That's definitely one way to go about it. I'm sure if you trained hard enough you could type just as fast with a keyboard with a modern controller if it was implemented and thought out well. Look up Steam's petal typing interface if you want to get an idea of what it could be like.

That thing was cool. I miss it. Why the hell did they have to go and get rid of it anyway. Get bent, whoever decided that.

[giwake]

I (in all honesty) don't really mind Windows 10's GUI most of the time. The start menu is kind of sucky and the weird focus mix between touchscreen and mouse is kind of a terrible awful idea that should never have been thought up in the first place, but I think it's... alright. Good enough for what I do and I don't really think I'd adapt too well to switching over to a completely new GUI due to muscle memory and my ASD and all that.

 

But the graphic design and lack of customizability BLOWS. I hate flat UI design. It makes me feel like I'm working in a shitty office building that has "Live Laugh Love" on every wall. I prefer stuff like Windows 7's Aero or even Windows 98's theme. I don't know why but the glossiness and slightly rounded edges had more of a "premium" feel to it, like I was handling crystals shaped into windows by a talented worksmith. Now it feels like I'm handling Fisher Price plastic or painted cardboard. And I can't switch it back because Microsoft thinks I'm installing 32 viruses in one if I even dare to try to change the theme, and even then it won't look like Aero because they've made it so hard to modify things, resulting in a freakish mix between Aero, 98 and Metro!

 

I do wish companies were more open to customization. Only one I've seen so far is New Blood Interactive allowing mods for Dusk to be made and outright supporting them via jams and tools. I guess the Steam Workshop counts as well.

[Manni]

hi did someone got any further with the windows context menu (right cklick menu ) because i cant get the idea out of my head to make it into a pie menu but i have no idea how. I have locked around in some windows theme sites but they never cange this menu. but it would be so perfect. I heve her also a cole pie menu from blender and i wish it would work in windows but its just for the aplicaision.

[Far Cry Tears]

Ok go easy on me totally new to all of this.

So I've been working on a pc for misc. office work here and there for a few years now and computers weren't really even on my radar for the most part before that. (console kid) 

So I'm an outsider and a half here, but Ross's video made immediate sense and kinda woke me up.

I'm worried this project is loosing steam, from what I've been reading there are a lot of great Ideas here. I think we need to band together and remember this isn't just for Ross or this community this is a massive project to help humanity here, I don't think I'm underselling this either.

 

I think it's time for a community meeting of sorts and we need to compile all the research and effort into one coherent update on this quest.

 

"So who am I?"

I here you asking. Well no one really. Now I think it's best I post a brief summary about myself for context that's what the next paragraph and bulleted list will be so if you don't care skip away chief.

 

Ok so first.

1) My computer background.

so I'm a tradesman I do electrical work for a living and only just started but I have to keep up to date on emails paper work etc. for my job sometimes.

three years ago a "friend"  "helped" me build a ryzen based desk top at the time on par with most content creators rigs. Well as you can guess from the air quotes I had no idea what I was doing and my expensive rig didn't last long. That being said I've done enough customization of windows on my laptop that I'm using now to see its limitations, without even realizing it. So I guess what I'm saying is I know enough to be dangerous to myself.

 

2) What do I know?

So for what it's worth I do have a basic understanding of Python.(VERY basic)

I'm a big fan of writing short stories as a hobby.(So I use my computer for creative purposes A LOT. I'm just very creatively inclined in general)

I work with my hands a lot and fabricate things all the time from useless crap in the physical world.

I've got a lot of experience with map making and level design in games(I did stuff in FarCry2 on an xbox that would make decent Gmod map makers proud), specifically on console using a limited interface. (though I have worked with UE4)

 

3) My resources.

So I have Time and dedication. when I see a project I don't stop until it's done even if it turns out hideous.

Networking, I'm really good at talking to people, cold calling, finding new resources, and making friends.

this next one is in parenthesis because I'm out of town right now and don't have the ability to have the face to face conversations necessary to ensure this resource. (I  may or may not work somewhere that has an entire software development team already building an application that can have a lot of these features tested on a large scale and may or may not have the means to make that happen.)

 

Okay now that that's out of the way and I've made my inexperience clear lets talk about how we can really make this happen.

I think we have enough in this forum post to get a good solid Idea of what we want.

We really need to rally together and and build a core group if it's not already established of who is really involved and dedicated to this project.

After that is established we need to see if we can slap it together into something that works and a complete list of what to install and in what order.

From there we can tweek it or see what we need and possibly reach out to other experts.

 

I really think it's important we define our goals for this thing and stick to what we need rather than a bunch of people spit balling.

If possible we should have a checklist to show our progress that is not just publicly available but easy to find.

 

I'll be honest I was 3 beers in when I started writing this and am now comfortably nursing beer five It's Friday and I'm low on steam.

I'm sure I have more contributions to offer but I can't think of any right now.

 

Remember guys this is a chance to improve humanity and make a huge leap forward as a civilization not just some quirky forum rant lets come at this objectively and kick some ass.

 

-sincerely

the new guy 

 

[Far Cry Tears]

Okay I just hacked my way through this thread.

 

I'm seeing a lot of patterns here.

 

Analog vs Binary arguments

So WE need to Iron this out moving forward the GUI quest is for everyone thus needs to have both analog and binary support.

there is no best option it depends on what tasks you prioritize. I think CLI is a give in to be included and make sure it's easy to access. 

However. This is the quest for GUI enlightenment remember? (not a diss I swear but this has to be settled moving forward.)

 

Rotary interface

Based on what Ross has brought up and kinda my own intuition here is these need to be big targets with lots of room for error.

I also think hexagons offer the most space efficient shape.

Having used rotary menus as much as I have I will say gestures form naturally from navigating this system so developing gestures could have it's start here.

 

Linux

Yes Linux kicks ass and is a great resource but I think it should really be a plan B not the starting point.

I really think Linux will probably be the best way to develop and test all the ideas but Linux is far from a one size fits all.

A lot of people keep saying well if your going that deep in customization of your GUI your X level of skilled anyway.(I'm not but here I am.)

Remember this needs to be as easy to spread as possible so it catches on and I think whatever we come up with should be stand alone.

 

Organization

So far this thread explodes when Ross makes a post then dies until he comes back.

we should plan on meeting up on discord or something similar once a week or month or whatever and post updates here. this is going to help a lot with finding and tracking progress because right now this is chaos.(which I enjoy but it hurts productivity)

 

so those are my thoughts I still have to go through and note all the resources and who listed them I'm going to try and find everyone that's been

contributing to the cause so we can rally together I think we have an awesome group here everyone is just scattered about right now.

 

Signed

-I have no clue what I'm doing

[BTGBullseye]

On 5/21/2021 at 9:23 AM, Far Cry Tears said:

because right now this is chaos.(which I enjoy but it hurts productivity)

Ah, so you ARE a Linux dev!

[Kyle]

I use no programs for adjusting ui, all of the changes I do are done using windows 10 and ui options.

 

I am a programmer so I use my computer a lot. I disagree about icons on the desktop. The desktop represents your workspace. For me it fills up as I work on a project, and when I am done or it gets cluttered, I file it away. Win+d gets to and from the desktop, so all of the files are one press away at any point. I keep it free of shortcuts.

I should also mention most of my work is done on laptops, which is not what I prefer, but they are just too useful. Since I don't have 2 monitors, I often work from windows I dock using win+arrow or dragging the header to one of the screen corners. I also map the 4 finger vertical swipe to volume control.

For selecting programs I just do winkey then type the first couple of letters, I like not having to take my hands off of the keyboard.

 

I am not an organized person irl, but I've found my layout helps me stay sane. There are thing I would like to change though. I think with OLEDs on the way, dark interfaces should support blacker blacks instead of these dim greys. I also would like to see a way to have ui elements + lines move ever so slightly every hour to help against burn-in.