How to save the forums?

[ygudik]

On 10/16/2021 at 7:36 AM, Im_CIA said:

Maybe we can rebrand as a crazy  hobo encampment that provides Soapbox as a Service.

This sounds like a fun idea. Also I'm new, where's the soap? xD

 

On 10/18/2021 at 2:27 AM, Shaddy said:

But imagine someone shows up ranting about how (((they))) are secretly controlling the world, and with a little prodding, it turns out that this whole time, (((they))) meant jews! Gasp! We are all completely blown away by this stunning revelation. Wow. Jews. Really? Like an antisemite would say? Huh.

Speaking honestly, I would think that a person thinking Jews control the world is more likely to be crazy than hateful. I mean, they may be both crazy and hateful, but perhaps it's sufficient to just write them off when they start to ramble. I mean, what would banning such a person accomplish? If not banned, it's not likely they would be able to convince a neutral observer they are right - so the antisemitism isn't likely to spread and there's little evil that can be prevented by banning them. OTOH, banning them both removes a member of the community (crazy as they are) and also reinforces their inner beliefs, instead of diminishing them.

 

Will I get banned if I ask what's an enlightenment van? :)

[Shaddy]

Okay, I may need to break this down

On 1/23/2022 at 7:02 AM, ygudik said:

Speaking honestly, I would think that a person thinking Jews control the world is more likely to be crazy than hateful. I mean, they may be both crazy and hateful, but perhaps it's sufficient to just write them off when they start to ramble.

Are we implying that people asking the jewish question are simply insane, a threat that extends no further than mental institutions? Because I don't think that's true. When I look at Richard Spencer or David Duke or whoever, I don't see someone whose brain is wrong. Personality disorders, unhealthy coping mechanisms, a facade of belief to cover up deep existential emptiness? Sure, that's all there, but I also see that in much less-horrible people, that's just a consequence of living in the world a lot of the time. They are not traits unique to "crazy people", nor do I think most mental health professionals would characterize them as such. Evil cannot be rebranded so easily.

On 1/23/2022 at 7:02 AM, ygudik said:

I mean, what would banning such a person accomplish? If not banned, it's not likely they would be able to convince a neutral observer they are right - so the antisemitism isn't likely to spread and there's little evil that can be prevented by banning them.

An individual does not inherently create a community of creeps, but that's usually because they remain individual. Hate speech moderation isn't just to keep forums clean, but because a place that's safe for one creep is a place that's safe for many. The moment these types are allowed to congregate uncontested, they start bringing their friends, and they will try to enforce themselves on the rest of the community. This went down in a lot of comics and anime fandom spaces in the early 2010s, and is a big part of the toxicity in nerd fandoms to this day.

On 1/23/2022 at 7:02 AM, ygudik said:

OTOH, banning them both removes a member of the community (crazy as they are) and also reinforces their inner beliefs, instead of diminishing them.

This is generally incorrect. Pretty much all the data we have on deplatforming has shown it to be effective both in reducing harmful influence and in decreasing that attitude in users spreading it. Hell, back in high school I frequented some pretty nasty forums, a couple that promoted Unite the Right, and when those places got banned, I didn't exactly retain a lot of the opinions I absorbed from there.

 

Also, saying "but they're a member of the community!" sounds like an argument against having rules at all, doesn't it? I could argue that someone spamming porn all over the forum is also a "member of the community", would it also be wrong to ban them? I mean, I'm far less offended by pornography than antisemitic conspiracy theories.

[HeartaceX]

Man, Holocaust talk...

I though you were just trying to save the forums!

[kerdios]

On 10/23/2021 at 3:02 AM, Shaddy said:

Anyway, yes, I do have Ross locked up in my basement. Sometimes I sing to him.

What'd you do with Magda?!

[ygudik]

The response is slightly out of order because I there is an important thing I need to point out.

 

On 1/24/2022 at 10:07 PM, Shaddy said:

Hate speech moderation isn't just to keep forums clean, but because a place that's safe for one creep is a place that's safe for many. The moment these types are allowed to congregate uncontested, they start bringing their friends, and they will try to enforce themselves on the rest of the community.

I didn't think of this. :( My bad. I had in my mind a rambling-hobo-style person that thinks Jews are controlling everything and also the water if fluoridated to affect our precious fluids and bend our minds (or whatever it was). Also, the gold standard. Because that is approximately the kind of people I had contact with in the wild, including on old phpBB forums. And as far as I remember, the usual protocol for handling them involved rolling your eyes and maybe ignoring them when they start rambling and only banning them if they actually started promoting or glorifying hatred of Jews. Of which I basically remember there being a single instance where a person "had fun" with a GIF of Hitler and got banned for a week or so. They didn't repeat the offense. (P.S. There may have been another one who unapologetically posted some GIFs from concentration camps, but it could be just my hazy memory. Maybe it was the same person.)

 

And speaking of rambling hobos,

On 1/24/2022 at 10:07 PM, Shaddy said:

Are we implying that people asking the jewish question are simply insane, a threat that extends no further than mental institutions? Because I don't think that's true. When I look at Richard Spencer or David Duke or whoever, I don't see someone whose brain is wrong.

I settled on just that explanation. For me, saying that "Jews control everything" is on the same level as saying "our precious bodily fluids". I don't want to imply they have an actual mental disorder (like a DSM diagnosis), but I'm pretty sure something went haywire upstairs. Let me elaborate.

 

When we, as humans, describe the world, we describe certain entities in that world, and rules by which the world behaves. And causations. And generally there is a well-agreed upon, but unwritten, algorithm for arriving to high level, intelligent descriptions of complex real world phenomena. Generally, that unwritten algorithm will not allow a person to conclude that "Jews control the world". So if a person does conclude that, then basically they didn't follow the algorithm. Maybe their brains are busted (like maybe they have an actual disorder that just didn't make it into DSM but will eventually), or maybe they are too young and are simply making understandable errors of judgment, or maybe they are old but were making those errors so long and so hard their brains ossified into a pathologic thought pattern (making them literally unable to formulate unerroneous thoughts) or maybe - maybe they are consciously and intentionally generating erroneous thoughts. Maybe they are even making those thoughts will full purpose of having erroneous, even evil, thoughts (like, maybe they are satanists and doing evil is part of their religious practice).

 

Whatever the matter, I think it's sensible to conclude in all of these circumstances, that they are "crazy". They are not behaving as intelligence dictates so they are by definition crazy. There might be a better word, but "beside intelligence" is the concept. Bible would call this "foolishness", particularly if it is done with understanding and intent.

 

On 1/24/2022 at 10:07 PM, Shaddy said:

This is generally incorrect. Pretty much all the data we have on deplatforming has shown it to be effective both in reducing harmful influence and in decreasing that attitude in users spreading it.

Ugh, "deplatforming" is a dirty word because of all the Woke Cancel Culture. Anyways, I haven't seen the data, and when I do I'll remember that it needs to be interpreted carefully and with nuance. Deplatforming is quite a spectrum.

 

 

Also, I had to look up Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 1978), David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950). Quite the cookies. I'm amazed such people exist, and I'm even more amazed they have more then 50 followers each. And I also had to look up Unite the Right. I heard of the Charlottesville riot but never got around to investigate the matter.

 

On 1/25/2022 at 2:10 AM, HeartaceX said:

Man, Holocaust talk...

I though you were just trying to save the forums!

Well, you will know a community by seeing how it handles explosive topics. :) This forum topic might generate more newcomers down the line. :) EDIT: BY WHICH I DIDN'T MEAN I AM SOME SORT OF A RECON FOR NAZIS!

Edited January 25, 2022 by ygudik (see edit history)

[kerdios]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:04 PM, ygudik said:

(like, maybe they are satanists and doing evil is part of their religious practice).

That's not what the Yezidi do.

[ygudik]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:52 AM, kerdios said:

That's not what the Yezidi do.

No, not Yezidi. I meant proper obvious western satanist, like the people that practice black masses or summon demons in the full knowledge of what their doing and full intent of doing it.

[Shaddy]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:04 PM, ygudik said:

I didn't think of this. :( My bad. I had in my mind a rambling-hobo-style person that thinks Jews are controlling everything and also the water if fluoridated to affect our precious fluids and bend our minds (or whatever it was). Also, the gold standard. Because that is approximately the kind of people I had contact with in the wild, including on old phpBB forums. And as far as I remember, the usual protocol for handling them involved rolling your eyes and maybe ignoring them when they start rambling and only banning them if they actually started promoting or glorifying hatred of Jews. Of which I basically remember there being a single instance where a person "had fun" with a GIF of Hitler and got banned for a week or so. They didn't repeat the offense. (P.S. There may have been another one who unapologetically posted some GIFs from concentration camps, but it could be just my hazy memory. Maybe it was the same person.)

A community small, insular and self-governed enough to have that sort of protocol is pretty different from this forum. Nonetheless, if a paranoid schizophrenic is saying it because he has delusions of grandure and genuinely believes it, and a holocaust denier is saying it because he wants to encourage violence against jewish people, there's not actually a difference in how an internet community should treat them.

On 1/25/2022 at 12:04 PM, ygudik said:

When we, as humans, describe the world, we describe certain entities in that world, and rules by which the world behaves. And causations. And generally there is a well-agreed upon, but unwritten, algorithm for arriving to high level, intelligent descriptions of complex real world phenomena. Generally, that unwritten algorithm will not allow a person to conclude that "Jews control the world". So if a person does conclude that, then basically they didn't follow the algorithm. Maybe their brains are busted (like maybe they have an actual disorder that just didn't make it into DSM but will eventually), or maybe they are too young and are simply making understandable errors of judgment, or maybe they are old but were making those errors so long and so hard their brains ossified into a pathologic thought pattern (making them literally unable to formulate unerroneous thoughts) or maybe - maybe they are consciously and intentionally generating erroneous thoughts. Maybe they are even making those thoughts will full purpose of having erroneous, even evil, thoughts (like, maybe they are satanists and doing evil is part of their religious practice)

The majority of people following this doctrine skipped past an actual conclusion. It functions off a lot of the same principles as cults -- charismatic (to them, not us) leaders that know everything they say is crap, and an audience that is so convinced of those leaders' viability or divinity that whether the things they say reason out are simply not a part of the argument. It's not their brain working wrong, they deliberately refuse to use it because their investment in great leader's end goal is more important. You can see smaller versions of this all over society (don't get me started on crypto scams), but I don't think someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult is succumbing to brainrot, either.

 

The rub with fascists is that a greater number of them know that holocaust denial, race science and the like are bunk, but are just belligerent assholes who enjoy violence being done to people different from them. I just don't think crazy is the term for it.

 

Also, be careful when talking about satanists. There's a big difference between the Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan for example, bigger than differences between christian sects a lot of the time.

On 1/25/2022 at 12:04 PM, ygudik said:

Whatever the matter, I think it's sensible to conclude in all of these circumstances, that they are "crazy". They are not behaving as intelligence dictates so they are by definition crazy. There might be a better word, but "beside intelligence" is the concept. Bible would call this "foolishness", particularly if it is done with understanding and intent.

You're probably thinking of "irrational", but the main reason to ban them is still not because they're simply incorrect, but because the things they want and do are harmful. If someone has an irrational argument about whether One Piece or Naruto is better, that's probably okay.

(One Piece is better, in case you were wondering)

On 1/25/2022 at 12:04 PM, ygudik said:

Ugh, "deplatforming" is a dirty word because of all the Woke Cancel Culture. Anyways, I haven't seen the data, and when I do I'll remember that it needs to be interpreted carefully and with nuance. Deplatforming is quite a spectrum.

Uhh, "Woke Cancel Culture" aside, I think we can agree that an obscure forum for a video game youtube channel is probably not among the most vital connections a person could lose.

On 1/25/2022 at 12:04 PM, ygudik said:

Well, you will know a community by seeing how it handles explosive topics. :) This forum topic might generate more newcomers down the line. :) EDIT: BY WHICH I DIDN'T MEAN I AM SOME SORT OF A RECON FOR NAZIS!

Well, I've kind of accidentally locked the majority of my discussion here into complaining about how the forum handles the reactionary end of the political spectrum. It isn't unsalvageable, I just think allowing that rhetoric to spread in the first place is worse than a rule restricting hate speech more than the mere letter of the law. Even if we were really interested in growing the community, the demographic of fascists is necessarily a lot smaller than the demographic of people they seek to harm. I'd go for the latter, personally.

 

[Im_CIA]

I'm way too wasted to read anything you wrote, but I just want to say God Bless America

[ygudik]

Well, @Shaddy I think you won me over, more or less. I mean - there's still a myriad points of debate left over but I think I see the wider wisdom of dropping the ban hammer early and hard. I'm not saying I internalized your position, but I do see the wisdom of it. :)

[Iforgotmyaccountname]

I only come to this website anymore to donate. I don't use Discord or Reddit either, for what it's worth.

 

The fate of communities like this is to become circlejerks for a few terminally online NEETs and kids who have nothing better to do than argue about "politics" based on their high school civics class and r/politicalcompassmemes knowledge. Not to mention hunting boogie men, whether it's the "nazis" or "the alt-right" or whatever.

 

Anyone with anything the least bit interesting going on in their lives does not spend their free time participating in these sort of activities. That is why the website fails to attract people outside the core crowd who are already beyond all hope. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, as no new members who could have a positive impact want to stick around after the first impression.

 

The same could be said for most of Reddit, Twitter, Discord, 4chan etc.