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What Finally Allowed Me To Understand The GOP

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On 11/10/2021 at 6:11 AM, Im_Unemployed said:

I heard they also eat babies and many profess to such things.

The difference between your statement and mine is that mine is true.

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On 11/10/2021 at 3:52 PM, Shaddy said:

The difference between your statement and mine is that mine is true.

It's actually worse than what you describe, because if you ask why they're being so cruel they'll feign offense and whine about how they aren't cruel, and "you're just being mean because you don't agree with me".

Edited by dashofweak (see edit history)

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On 11/10/2021 at 9:22 AM, dashofweak said:

You didn't address any of the three points I made towards the end. Some crucial points. Big one. Ones that, if I thought were wrong or questioned my credibility, I would want to address right away.

 

Instead you want to get bogged down in the tiny technical stuff, trying as hard as you can to not talk about how the GOP is a vehicle for manifesting a white supremacist system with the very wealthy on top.

 

That seems like something much more worth talking about AND is actually very relevant to the entire point of this thread. Rather than the semantics argument you so desperately want to have instead.

 

What is very telling is the things you DON'T respond to, at all.

 

Almost like you really really don't want to talk about them. Instead you're more interested in a rhetorical shell game. 

 

Why is that?

 

With that in mind, let me ask for a 2nd time: what is YOUR source for what fascism is. So far all you've posted is people talking about if Trump is fascist or not instead of what you would consider fascism to be.

 

 

I was questioning the framing of your arguments. I already said that I can concede that Trump is facist and it won't change the underlying  problem with you argument, which is creating absolutes in a context where none can exist (by the way, bigots reason among similar lines). You're also making hot takes while pretending that your own shit doesn't stink with that Republicans are sexual predators portion.  If you're jumping in with shaky logic supported on preconceptions("Conservatives are literally Satan, but why?") then there is nothing to discuss except for the meta.

 

On 11/10/2021 at 9:26 AM, dashofweak said:

 

But I'm very specifically talking about the GOP and why they appear to be such blatant hypocrites and liars to the outsider.

 

"Why are you a Satan worshiper?"

loadedquestion.jpg

Edited by Im_Unemployed (see edit history)

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On 11/10/2021 at 4:52 PM, Shaddy said:

The difference between your statement and mine is that mine is true.

No it's not. I won't hurt anyone unless they are threatening me with injury inside my home or in a stand your ground state. Outside is a lot different from twitter and the youtube comment section.

"Ich bin, ja, ja, Volkswagen narcoman"

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On 11/10/2021 at 9:02 PM, Im_Unemployed said:

I was questioning the framing of your arguments. I already said that I can concede that Trump is facist and it won't change the underlying  problem with you argument, which is creating absolutes in a context where none can exist (by the way, bigots reason among similar lines). You're also making hot takes while pretending that your own shit doesn't stink with that Republicans are sexual predators portion.  If you're jumping in with shaky logic supported on preconceptions("Conservatives are literally Satan, but why?") then there is nothing to discuss except for the meta.

 

"Why are you a Satan worshiper?"

loadedquestion.jpg

 

Sure buddy, whatever you say.

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On 11/10/2021 at 7:07 PM, Im_Unemployed said:

No it's not. I won't hurt anyone unless they are threatening me with injury inside my home or in a stand your ground state.

 I didn't say anything about what an individual will or will not do, only what the group as a body wants.

On 11/10/2021 at 7:07 PM, Im_Unemployed said:

Outside is a lot different from twitter and the youtube comment section.

Outside is where the mask comes off the most, you think it will reflect better on them?

Edited by Shaddy (see edit history)

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On 11/11/2021 at 4:06 AM, Shaddy said:

 I didn't say anything about what an individual will or will not do, only what the group as a body wants.

silver-index-racial-92.png

 

I see *a gap* with white republicans compared to white democrats in holding racist views.

 

 

PRRI-IFYC-May-2021-QAnon_1-1024x664.png

 

Again, this shows that Republicans are more likely to have extremist views. But I don't know where you are getting the majority from.

 

On 11/11/2021 at 4:06 AM, Shaddy said:

Outside is where the mask comes off the most, you think it will reflect better on them?

 

If the mask is on in discord and 4chan, then outside must be alternate hill valley by now.

 

P.S I like how the graphs are arranged to show the Republican bar as a giant middle finger

Edited by Im_Unemployed (see edit history)

"Ich bin, ja, ja, Volkswagen narcoman"

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On 11/11/2021 at 3:39 PM, Im_Unemployed said:

I see *a gap* with white republicans compared to white democrats in holding racist views.

 

Again, this shows that Republicans are more likely to have extremist views. But I don't know where you are getting the majority from.

I didn't say the majority. You don't think the group is collectively in the control of or has its ideology collectively determined by the people in it, do you?

 

I also didn't say they were all extremists. They don't all need to be, after all.

Edited by Shaddy (see edit history)

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On 11/11/2021 at 9:20 PM, Shaddy said:

I also didn't say they were all extremists. They don't all need to be, after all.

 

Agreed, all the republican party has to do to become an extremist party is never stop, apologize for, or hold accountable the extremists in their ranks. If no one stops them, then that means they have the approval of the GOP to do whatever they want.

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On 11/21/2021 at 6:26 PM, dashofweak said:

Agreed, all the republican party has to do to become an extremist party is never stop, apologize for, or hold accountable the extremists in their ranks. If no one stops them, then that means they have the approval of the GOP to do whatever they want.

That's an interesting claim.
The same can be applied to the Republic of Ireland and the IRA
or The Muslim Brotherhood and HAMAS
don't you think?

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On 11/21/2021 at 8:26 AM, dashofweak said:

Agreed, all the republican party has to do to become an extremist party is never stop, apologize for, or hold accountable the extremists in their ranks. If no one stops them, then that means they have the approval of the GOP to do whatever they want.

Not really my point. The beneficiaries and victims of conservative policy will benefit and be hurt respectively whether the extremism happens or not. Radical policy is designed to make individual radicals unnecessary. Even if there were zero extremists, it would still be a horrible ideology with disastrous effects. Conservatives who know what their ideology is and always has been about realize this, and thus understand that there's no reason to put in the effort.

Edited by Shaddy (see edit history)

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On 11/22/2021 at 7:55 PM, kerdios said:

That's an interesting claim.
The same can be applied to the Republic of Ireland and the IRA
or The Muslim Brotherhood and HAMAS
don't you think?

All of those are (relative to population anyways) small groups that act on their own.

 

Rather than one of two entire political parties for an entire country. I'm not responsible for the actions of The Three Percenters or the Proud Boyz and the people of Quebec aren't responsible for the Front de libération du Québec.

 

But even if you were to increase the scale your point wouldn't work. For example as a leftist I'm not responsible for the actions of the GOP or the extremists that aren't being held accountable by the GOP. But you don't even need to be opposed to not be held responsible: the Church of Mormon isn't responsible for the actions of the GOP or their extremists as a whole even if a lot of their members are part of the GOP. They would be responsible for any extremists within the Church of Mormon itself however, see how that works? However, they wouldn't be responsible for anyone claiming to be part of the Church of Mormon if they had been (sincerely) disinvited from official gatherings, were told they can't associate with the church anymore, whenever those committed extremists acts they said they don't agree and wish they'd stop saying they're a part of their church.

 

But what the GOP is doing is REFUSING to call out their own side's extremist behavior, making it clear that they don't mind those people being associated with the GOP, maybe repeating false to flimsy statements that aren't direct statements of support but give credence to the batshit things the extremists say (ex. I'm not anti-vaccine, but...).

 

It's about voluntary groups holding their own members accountable.

 

And I shouldn't need all of that to explain to you (or let's be real anyone reading this because we both know what you're really trying to do) that general associations like "Part of the Muslim Brotherhood" or "Part of the Republic of Ireland" aren't the same as "The political party you identify with".

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On 11/9/2021 at 9:07 PM, Im_Unemployed said:

 I found a pretty good article that mulls over this issue after the capitol riots. Many pundits don't seem to think that Trump falls into the traditional defenition of the word. 

https://www.vox.com/22225472/fascism-definition-trump-fascist-examples

 

>We should reserve the term “fascism” for leaders or movements that are not merely authoritarian. Fascists were revolutionaries, they aspired to control the state, economy and society (totalitarian vs authoritarian), had large, organized mass movements behind them (which included institutionalized paramilitaries alongside control of the military as well as extensive secret police and intelligence services) and of course came to power after democracy had largely failed. So to my mind Trump (and the Republican party) remain better characterized as pseudo-authoritarian rather than fascist — both because of their particular features/characteristics and because for all its weaknesses and flaws, American democracy (at least thus far) has not deteriorated to the point where constraining institutions no longer operate.

 

If you examine Trump in a broader sense then you'll notice that he fits rather snugly into the populist peg. Given that trust in the government is at an all time low, it doesn't take much to explain why people would support an political outsider with radical ideas and common man bluster. 

Populism doesn't exclude fascism, the latter is a political ideology whereas the former is mostly marketing. 

That said, Trump is a proto-fascist. Not necessarily a fascist himself, but you'd have to be blind to not see how his administration lays the groundwork for fascism to grow in the future. His base is insanely cult-like and practically worship him, are willing to deny simple reality for their own comfort, and as mentioned previously, don't REALLY have much of a grasp on consequences. Racial tensions are growing in no small part due to conservative agitprop which has largely been littered with white nationalist talking points the past half decade. Theocratic policy aiming to restrict the rights of women and queer people are gaining increasing levels of support. The fact that peoples' immediate response to the notion that fascism is growing in this country is to act like fascism is too strong a word is extremely troubling, fascism doesn't happen overnight, it has warning signs and people are ignoring them. If any of this "seems normal" then that's a fucking problem.

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