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ROSS’S GAME DUNGEON: SONIC HEROES

New Game Dungeon! This took way, way longer than it was supposed to. The original plan was to have this be under 20 minutes released last month. Instead, the game hit me pretty hard so I just didn’t want to leave so much out. Anyway, it’s finally done and I’m pretty happy with it, though I’m really going to have to go back to shorter episodes for a while. I think I figured out the source of some of my problems in the game since I made it, but not all of them.

On another note, I discovered a bug in Premiere hours ago, where it simply interpreted FRAPS footage improperly. It actually caused stalled frames and the timing to change. This came as a bit of a shock as I didn’t notice it until very late in the process. Re-encoding into another lossless codec solved the problem, but I wasn’t going to do that for 1.5TB of footage (the gameplay was recorded losslessly) without delaying the video another day at least. I solved the most egregious problems, but it’s possible there are some small problems left in there that I missed. I can release one of the problematic clips for testing if people are interested, though I should see if I can chop it without re-encoding as it’s about 30GB on its own. For anyone critical of fraps, feel free to recommend software for recording DirectX 5-8 content with hardware antialiasing enabled (it may not behave how you think).

Freeman’s Mind next! Should come much faster!

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where would you land or take off with a plane in the middle of nowhere, plus sonic is fast as hell, he can just grab you and circle the whole planet, why even bother with a plane it's redundant when you even think about it lol

 

also

 

sonic is well known for its cases of domestic abuse

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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Yo @Ross Scott, I'm real happy for 'ya and imma let you finish, but The Geek Critique already created the best Sonic Heroes review of all time!*


...But in all seriousness, as something of a Sonic Cultist myself (but also a general game player who's played good games in general): In regards to the camera jerking, the automated sections sometimes not working correctly, not being able to judge 3D space in the levels, homing attack not working correctly, that one section in BINGO Highway, the issues pulling the switch in Final Fortress, rail switching not working sometimes, completely falling off a cliff, etc. ... It's not just you not being a Sonic fan or having Gaming Dementia. I can tell you right now: The game is rather glitchy and overall just... kinda sucks. And despite you playing the PC version, these issues were there even on the original console versions; given that I played the Gamecube version wayback as a kid and ran into most of those same problems as well. (I even had to do that exact Tails trick you pulled to get through that final giant laser in Final Fortress.) So you probably should've given this your "Love & Hate" award.

* I'd actually really recommend you watch TGC's reviews/retrospectives on Adventure 1, 2 (Battle), Sonic '06 and Shadow whenever you get the chance, Ross. They kinda give you an idea of what happened during the "Adventure Era" of the Sonic series development-wise.

Edited by SomethingOther (see edit history)

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Also, in regards to a Heroes PC widescreen mod, there was actually this mod that works a lot better that was released just one month/a few weeks before your review, so I don't blame you for not noticing it at the time of you recording your footage.

Edited by SomethingOther (see edit history)

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6 minutes ago, SomethingOther said:

Also, in regards to a Heroes PC widescreen mod, there was actually this mod that works a lot better that was released just one month/a few weeks before your review, so I don't blame you for not noticing it at the time of you recording your footage.

i mean, why would anybody think of checking game banana of all places lol

 

apparently this is a thing

 

https://gamebanana.com/wips/49828

 

MIXYMB1.png

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

where would you land or take off with a plane in the middle of nowhere

As long as you have a flat enough and long enough stretch of land, a plane can be landed on it. Many low-cost/private air fields are just flat patches of grass that they mow frequently when in use (video of a standard general aviation plane landing on a well-maintained grass airfield [jump to 4:50]). Any old field can also be used for emergency landings (video of emergency landing on a set of soccer fields [jump to 0:15]), farm fields are commonly used for emergency landings, they're a bit more rough due to the crops and furrows, but a plane typically isn't going to be destroyed by crops unless the pilot is very unlucky or the farmer's growing large, dense plants like watermelons or pumpkins. Furthermore, many pilots just like to explore and will fit larger tires on to their planes in order to land on rougher terrain (video of a "bushwacker" pilot performing short-takeoff and landings on rough terrain).

 

Edited by ThatOneDraffan (see edit history)

ISTP-T | Aspiring Blind AF Pilot | Student Programmer

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4 minutes ago, ThatOneDraffan said:

As long as you have a flat enough and long enough stretch of land, a plane can be landed on it. Many low-cost/private air fields are just flat patches of grass that they mow frequently when in use (video of a standard general aviation plane landing on a well-maintained grass airfield [jump to 4:50]). Any old field can also be used for emergency landings (video of emergency landing on a set of soccer fields [jump to 0:15]), farming fields are commonly used for emergency landings, they're a bit more rough due to the crops and furrows, but a plane typically isn't going to be destroyed by crops. Furthermore, many pilots just like to explore and will fit larger tires on to their planes in order to land on rougher terrain (video of a "bushwacker" pilot performing short-takeoff and landings on rough terrain).

 

i would find it pretty challenging to land a plane in the middle of a canyon or in the middle of space, without dying

also the sonic world is not the real world, we can't just apply earth style geography logic to a videogame mostly set in mid air lol

 

the plane is mostly there to make tails look less useless than he is and, to look cool in the cutscenes, otherwise the rest is just your usual videogame logic lol

 

anyway i just noticed that the hud is always in 4:3 mode and it kinda pisses me off LOL, but i blame the developers for not thinking ahead of time, they could've anchored the hud differently if they wanted to, there was no need for them to be this lazy, but... eh, whatever

 

Yx1LnXN.png

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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4 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i would find it pretty challenging to land a plane in the middle of a canyon

The only special condition landing inside of a canyon would entail is a narrow field, all the other conditions such as wind (will be effected by canyon walls, but crosswinds would almost entirely be eliminated and they're the most annoying for takeoff or landing anyway), runway condition, aircraft characteristics, etc., but there's no reason an experienced pilot wouldn't be able to perform a narrow landing as long as they had enough straight and smooth enough runway for their plane (narrow grass field landing video).

ISTP-T | Aspiring Blind AF Pilot | Student Programmer

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3 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

anyway i just noticed that the hud is always in 4:3 mode and it kinda pisses me off LOL, but i blame the developers for not thinking ahead of time, they could've anchored the hud differently if they wanted to, there was no need for them to be this lazy, but... eh, whatever

Sonic Heroes was released in December 2003, in a time where people were mosting using [CRT] 4:3 resolution TV/computer monitors. Yes, there were some widescreen monitors at this time, and yes, some games even before that time did have widescreen support -- but in most cases, especially in regard to the latter, those were the exceptions and not the rule. Even during the late 2000s, when widescreen TVs were getting more and more commonplace, it took a while specifically in the USA for widescreen as a regular format to be more commonplace (some TV shows had to be editted from widescreen to a 4:3 aspect ratio, for example). It was what it was, and there wasn't much we could do about it.

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10 minutes ago, SomethingOther said:

Sonic Heroes was released in December 2003, in a time where people were mosting using [CRT] 4:3 resolution TV/computer monitors. Yes, there were some widescreen monitors at this time, and yes, some games even before that time did have widescreen support -- but in most cases, especially in regard to the latter, those were the exceptions and not the rule. Even during the late 2000s, when widescreen TVs were getting more and more commonplace, it took a while specifically in the USA for widescreen as a regular format to be more commonplace (some TV shows had to be editted from widescreen to a 4:3 aspect ratio, for example). It was what it was, and there wasn't much we could do about it.

that's not an excuse, these guys are just lazy programmers, i have plenty of older games which scale perfectly fine at 16:9

 

this is on par with, games which run faster depending on your CPU speed, it's just bad, lazy ass programming, it's not a technical limitation, they could've setup the hud differently, but instead it's all janky as hell, and it's all fixed in place

 

i mean i think i saw the word "flash" on one of those game bananas pages, this game doesn't seriously use freakin flash for the hud right? i mean it really shows just how "professional" they truly were

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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12 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i mean i think i saw the word "flash" on one of those game bananas pages, this game doesn't seriously use freakin flash for the hud right? i mean it really shows just how "professional" they truly were

https://gamebanana.com/guis/35818

Quote

This [mod] was entirely made from scratch using Flash Pro!

The creator of the widescreen Heroes mod I linked to used Flash and then exported the graphics to something readable by Heroes' engine for the mod. The original devs likely used other programs to create the graphics.

Edited by SomethingOther (see edit history)

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I feel like Ross nailed some of my experience game.  There's a lot of personality and good here, and a lot of, for a lack of a better term, jank.  I played the actual gamecube game and later the pc and I can confirm what was said in passing earlier, the PC version is built on an earlier version of the engine and has way more jank. 

 

There are a lot of 'automatic' sections that fail for seemingly no reason.  And inputs sometimes just do random things because it does have the problem of, in trying to make a simplistic control scheme, having certain buttons do too many things that if it does the wrong one, you die horribly, notably switching rails and jumping off rails.  Personally I found the best way to make sure I mostly did what I wanted to do, was to make sure that the stuff I wanted to do, I took a quick breathe before doing anything, too many inputs too quickly really makes this game upset.  Want to switch rails? well make sure I took a breathe after switching a rail, or doing the hoppy acceleration thing.


The second thing that it took me a while to realize is how super super important the attack upgrade things are, it changes the damage and the visuals and even mechanics of some of the moves.  You get one by going through checkpoint with a character, or in certain balloons/item boxes etc. . . and each c haracter can hold 3 (it shows them on the thing) it turns tails air attack from absolute garbage to perfectly good. 

a lot of the 'dashing off or hopping off cliffs' is something that's plagued 3d sonic for a bit, some of it is acceleration and just the game not always handling speed well.  Given how big an improvement sonic heroes is over adventure in the sense of feeling in control of the character it's a good step forward, but it is something that for the most part gets better, like generations had much better 3d controls and platforming.

Depth perception/the camera are big enemies, or were to me too, and again I think that's some just due to nature of 3d platformers at the time, and good cameras being hard at the best of times, it's an art where it feels the divides keep getting bigger, but it's hard to really appreciate a great camera because it feels that's how it should be, and very very easy to recognize a bad or shakey camera.

 

In the end I always felt like this was one of my favorite 3d sonic games, I loved the aesthetics, theming, and personality of the game and it's like, if they spent a year or two refining or rethinking some of the ideas, it could be one of the best 3d sonic games very easily.  personally I remembered thinking the 3 teams should have been the switching, like a speed team, a flying team, and a fighter team and having the mechanics and exploration be drastically different, but then there is this issue that it'd be hard to get people to really want to play something other than speed team.

 

in the end, it's flawed, and in some ways massively, but when there's good, there's so much good.

 

And also, Ross, I have no idea why you had an aversion to checkpoints.  Did they say something mean to you as a child?  Did you just hate that they almost always came with a dialogue line?  I think you really need to s it down with your therapist to hash out this clearly deep seated issue.

Edited by incorrectdigit (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, ultrayoba said:

About first of your question, about whole amy issue I always remembered a cinemotagraphic theory by Mike Stoklasa  about "not gay characters". Characters inserted just to show that other character not gay and nothing much more. The fact that sonik and tails have such... perfect duo, made it as requrement to insert someone to show that "they are just friends".

...and they managed to achieve the polarly opposite effect, considering how uninterested Sonic is in her

 

P.S. also I really like your screen name 800px-Yoba_Bro_01.thumb.png.7d43ef2fdfe55da1e09b9d035eea612e.png

Come the full moon, the bat flies whose boiling blood shall stem the tide.

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1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

@Ross Scott some of your footage is corrupted

 

While it's possible it is elsewhere, that part isn't.  That's from in-game, I think the camera caught part of a platform for half a second.  If it's corrupted, you'll see dropped frames, then the timing being off.  I didn't notice it until 3/4 way through the video, then I fixed some segments that were really off.  I didn't have time to redo all the shots just in case, otherwise this would have been delayed at least another day.

 

1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i mean, why would anybody think of checking game banana of all places lol

 

apparently this is a thing

 

https://gamebanana.com/wips/49828

 

I saw that literally while finishing up editing, but I saw a shot of their skybox and wasn't impressed (all the other stuff looked pretty sharp though), so it actually wasn't a fix for the textures that I most wanted changed.

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15 minutes ago, Ross Scott said:

While it's possible it is elsewhere, that part isn't.  That's from in-game, I think the camera caught part of a platform for half a second.  If it's corrupted, you'll see dropped frames, then the timing being off.  I didn't notice it until 3/4 way through the video, then I fixed some segments that were really off.  I didn't have time to redo all the shots just in case, otherwise this would have been delayed at least another day.

 

I saw that literally while finishing up editing, but I saw a shot of their skybox and wasn't impressed (all the other stuff looked pretty sharp though), so it actually wasn't a fix for the textures that I most wanted changed.

quote 1

i'm too lazy to verify anyway

 

quote 2

i mean, i was looking for the sky textures also, i don't really care about most textures in general, and if anything i hate overly sharp textures, they are really hard on my eyes and blurrier textures usually are just easier for me to look at, and i somehow get more immersed

 

ultra sharp textures just remind me that i'm in a videogame and i hate it, a ton of modern games do this thing where, everything is so high poly and the textures are so sharp, to the point where everything looks almost TOO detailed, and it's all very clean and almost perfect looking, it looks really unnatural ironically, even though most games nowdays strive for downright photorealism (which they pull off uh, very poorly)

 

it all looks plasticy and fake for the most part, it's like perfectionism overload, i don't have any example to showcase this, but it really bugs me

 

like i honestly struggle to get immersed into games which are ultra high poly, i find myself really getting immersed into older games with good lighting more often than not, give me a great sunset over flashy graphics any day

 

maybe dishonored 2 and deus ex come to mind? something about this looks off to me

 

lxfdUuk.png

 

xRhC4mX.jpg

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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26 minutes ago, ScumCoder said:

...and they managed to achieve the polarly opposite effect, considering how uninterested Sonic is in her

Ha ha, yea

Re: About plane landing, aren't it's same configuration that Tails transform "tornado 2" in-flight but can't transform back or land, so he can only crash anyway?

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@Ross Scott this was one of (very few) videos I've ever seen that made me literally put it on pause to stop laughing. A couple times I laughed so hard that my diaphragm went into spasm and scared me that I won't be able to breathe.

 

4 hours ago, Ross Scott said:

...so is this a situation where a 12-years-old wants to marry Sonic, and Sonic is saying “Yeah, that’s nice, but you’re 12 years old. I can’t be with a 12 year old. That’s not cool”. So he gets all weirded out by this.

 

But now that she’s formed a team, she’s brought along Big the Cat as an enforcer. And the thing is, Sonic Adventure left me with an impression that he is mildly retarded. Literally. Sort of like Lennie from “Of Mice and Men”, except without the guidance of George. It seems like his main mentor is just some frog he found. It’s kind of tragic, really. He is not smart, but he is huge, and he follows orders; so now Amy’s recruited him to try and instigate a shotgun wedding for herself.

 

And the thing is, no one understands why this is a problem. No one on her team has the mental capacity to understand why she can’t marry Sonic. So they have to work their relationship problems out in public in a giant team brawl. Yeah, I take back what I said; this is fascinating writing. In fact, I wouldn’t mind seeing a real life enactment of this: a 12 year old girl with a hammer, some toddlers and a hulk, beating up her beau and friends to marry him.

 

…they fling themselves over the edge to fall to their imminent deaths. Sure, I’ll marry you, Amy. Till Death do us part.

So yeah, that was kind of tragic and brutal. Wasn’t expecting that.

 

It doesn't matter how long these videos take to make if they will continue to shine decades later.

 

Game: "Just barely good enough".

Ross: [Nyet 3 scream]

Edited by ScumCoder (see edit history)

Come the full moon, the bat flies whose boiling blood shall stem the tide.

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About 06, It has most mind blowing envieroments later in game. First stage is boring but later it is post apocalyptic city, ancient palace ruins, egypt, some water base in water with water.
 

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1 hour ago, Igor_Oleynikov said:

About 06, It has most mind blowing envieroments later in game. First stage is boring but later it is post apocalyptic city, ancient palace ruins, egypt, some water base in water with water.
 

those loading times are not worth it, plus the game is a god damn eye sore, somehow sonic heroes looks BETTER than a "next gen" game

 

sonic 2006 is not worth it

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