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I can't be alone in being disappointed with the average conservative christian, right? I have no clue how a significant portion of the christian constituency in this country can defend profligate consumerist culture, support a system that rewards greed and exploitation, uphold policies that oppress the needy and marginalized, and vote for violent, xenophobic sociopaths. These are more issues I have with American conservatism than christianity, but honestly, it absolutely baffles me how any christian can claim moral authority over anyone while also being a conservative.

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I don't this is restricted to just "Christian" conservatives.  

 

Everyone is a hypocrite, but some are more than others. 

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1 hour ago, Im_CIA said:

I don't this is restricted to just "Christian" conservatives.  

 

Everyone is a hypocrite, but some are more than others. 

I don't either, but it's been a specific point of frustration for me lately in light of the Georgia and Alabama abortion bills. I feel like there's a particularly frustrating hypocrisy in people seeking to reduce others' civil liberties on moral grounds when they're also proponents of a very immoral system (especially by christian standards). Obviously I'm in no place to say who's really a christian and who isn't, considering I haven't practiced christianity in a decade, but I doubt a lot of these people really take their christian values to heart.

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The thing is, abortion is literally killing a person. Just because they haven't left the womb, doesn't make them any less a person. I am unfamiliar with the exact wording of the bills you're referencing, but giving up a baby for adoption is not a difficult process. (it's answering a few questions when delivering the baby) There are also numerous resources to assist with the pregnancy itself, so that shouldn't be an issue either.

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14 hours ago, BTGBullseye said:

The thing is, abortion is literally killing a person. Just because they haven't left the womb, doesn't make them any less a person. I am unfamiliar with the exact wording of the bills you're referencing, but giving up a baby for adoption is not a difficult process. (it's answering a few questions when delivering the baby) There are also numerous resources to assist with the pregnancy itself, so that shouldn't be an issue either.

Let's get this out of the way first: Abortion is not the same as murder. Let's not muddy the waters by assigning moral equivalence between the two. If they were truly morally equivalent then we would treat them as such, but this largely isn't the case. There are a few exceptions, the Georgia bill for example carries a penalty of life in prison, however even this isn't truly congruent with murder in the same state as that can be anywhere from 10 years to a death sentence depending on the charge. The language the Georgia bill uses also defines miscarriage as an "abortion", so if we're being logically consistent with the language used here, that should probably make a miscarriage carry the same sentence as unintentional manslaughter. If that sounds hyperbolic, then honestly, you might want to re-evaluate what your issue with abortion truly is.

 

Second: I'm not really even speaking on whether or not abortion is morally okay. I'm not "pro-abortion", I don't think anybody truly is except perhaps some odd edgy misanthrope who thinks overpopulation is an issue of concern. However, I'm not in favor of stripping someone of their bodily autonomy (including use of hard drugs, rehabilitation would be more productive than incarceration), and I'm not in favor of creating victims of circumstance. My point is that you shouldn't claim moral authority on a topic like abortion while also being a purveyor of perhaps the worst culture of excess on the planet. Abortion shouldn't even be a discussion in the country that invented the televangelist and megachurch.

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Also I feel that I should add: Abortion is not a particularly interesting topic of debate, because honestly, I truly feel it's one of those things that just isn't debatable. You can certainly try, you can argue the morality of it for days, but it's honestly futile because there's moral justification both for and against it. What it boils down to is less about morality and ethics and more about pragmatics and how libertarian you are. If you were to look at gun control from a similar standpoint, guns cause more death of fully developed humans than abortion does, and yet conservatives will gladly drop the question of ethics to speak strictly about whether or not gun control is actually effective and what alternative measures could be taken to reduce gun violence (albeit they are rather lazy on this one and typically default to 2nd amendment purism). That same energy simply isn't shared in the abortion debate. If you're anti-choice, you're most likely arguing strictly on ethics and not on whether or not abortion bans are actually effective, and the fact of the matter is, abortion legislation is simply not effective.

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On 5/18/2019 at 8:39 AM, Annie said:

Let's get this out of the way first: Abortion is not the same as murder. Let's not muddy the waters by assigning moral equivalence between the two. If they were truly morally equivalent then we would treat them as such, but this largely isn't the case. There are a few exceptions, the Georgia bill for example carries a penalty of life in prison, however even this isn't truly congruent with murder in the same state as that can be anywhere from 10 years to a death sentence depending on the charge. The language the Georgia bill uses also defines miscarriage as an "abortion", so if we're being logically consistent with the language used here, that should probably make a miscarriage carry the same sentence as unintentional manslaughter. If that sounds hyperbolic, then honestly, you might want to re-evaluate what your issue with abortion truly is.

 

Second: I'm not really even speaking on whether or not abortion is morally okay. I'm not "pro-abortion", I don't think anybody truly is except perhaps some odd edgy misanthrope who thinks overpopulation is an issue of concern. However, I'm not in favor of stripping someone of their bodily autonomy (including use of hard drugs, rehabilitation would be more productive than incarceration), and I'm not in favor of creating victims of circumstance. My point is that you shouldn't claim moral authority on a topic like abortion while also being a purveyor of perhaps the worst culture of excess on the planet. Abortion shouldn't even be a discussion in the country that invented the televangelist and megachurch.

First off, it is the same as murder to a LOT of people... Mainly because it is ending the life of a sapient being just for convenience sake. There's a reason why when someone murders a pregnant woman, they are treated to two counts of murder.

 

Second, if that's the wording in the bill (remember, I mentioned that I have not read them) then the bill is moronic. Miscarriages have nothing whatsoever to do with abortion.

 

Third, you just got done talking about the morality of it, and then try to claim you aren't talking about its morality... Pick one and stick to it, don't be a liar.

 

Fourth, "bodily autonomy" is not stripped from someone just because you won't let them legally murder someone. With a rare few exceptions, that person chose to make that life, and they should have to live with the consequences of that decision.

 

Lastly, where did this "worst culture of excess on the planet" stuff come from, and what has it to do with the abortion stuff?

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59 minutes ago, BTGBullseye said:

First off, it is the same as murder to a LOT of people... Mainly because it is ending the life of a sapient being just for convenience sake. There's a reason why when someone murders a pregnant woman, they are treated to two counts of murder.

Doesn't matter who it counts as murder to, the lack of consensus alone should make one err on the side of "not murder", along with the fact that it's effectively a parasite without the capability to speak or engage in deep or emotional thought. And before you try to argue that fetuses aren't parasites, do realize that I'm not arguing semantics here. Do note the use of the word "effectively".

1 hour ago, BTGBullseye said:

Third, you just got done talking about the morality of it, and then try to claim you aren't talking about its morality... Pick one and stick to it, don't be a liar.

You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. Very intellectually dishonest. I never said I wasn't talking about the morality of abortion, what I said was that I'm not discussing whether or not abortion is morally okay. I never gave an answer on whether or not it was because it truly depends on circumstance. HOWEVER, it's no skin off my nose who chooses to get an abortion and I find a certain moral hypocrisy in the anti-choice position, at least in the vast majority of cases. If anti-choicers want a seat at the table, maybe they should reconsider their very anti-life perspectives that food and universal healthcare aren't basic human rights. Maybe they should show more compassion to homeless youth rejected by their parents and by society often for being LGBT+.

 

1 hour ago, BTGBullseye said:

Fourth, "bodily autonomy" is not stripped from someone just because you won't let them legally murder someone. With a rare few exceptions, that person chose to make that life, and they should have to live with the consequences of that decision.

Again: it's not murder and I'm not going to argue from the perspective who draws moral equivalence between abortion and murder. And yes, bodily autonomy is quite literally stripped from you when a legitimate medical procedure whose effects range from ending pregnancy-related health complications to literally saving lives becomes illegal.

1 hour ago, BTGBullseye said:

Lastly, where did this "worst culture of excess on the planet" stuff come from, and what has it to do with the abortion stuff?

I get the feeling you haven't been following along at all. We have reached a stage of capitalism where churches are run for profit by TV personalities with private jets, where money is no longer considered the root of all evil, where companies use figures who stood against capitalism in advertising. I promise you Jesus and your average Conservative would've had very different views between a homeless drug addict and Jeff Bezos, but Christians still do tend to be conservative.


I don't want to come off as though peoples' faith is any of my business, but peoples' political views have direct impact on people, including me (not abortion laws specifically but conservatives tend to be socially authoritarian which I'm not okay with). When I find out people holding frankly evil political views also worship a figure whose teachings American conservatism directly contradicts, you best believe I'm going to call that shit out.

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