Jump to content

Legal analysis roundup (for USA)

Sign in to follow this  

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ScumCoder said:

Oh come on, are you actually trying to pull this card?¬†ūüėÄ Horrible work conditions are a standard in gamedev.
As for development costs - Witcher 3 was an absolute financial success, meaning that its sale figures were good enough even from the perspective of USA companies. Lower development costs just mean that it was even more profitable for CDPR, but it's in no way the reason why it was successful.

Horrible work conditions are not "standard" on the level CDPR has them; they'd literally be illegal in the first world. And they can't make their games without those conditions; consider that, even with these bottom of the barrel labor costs, Witcher 3 still costed nearly $90 million to make. Thus, it is not a remotely sustainable model and doesn't solve the underlying issue of single-player games dying.

Quote

There is nothing special about CDPR (actually they look pretty good compared to American companies in this regard).

You're just blatantly lying at this point. CDPR would have absolutely no one working for them if they were based in any developed country, and Poland is rapidly approaching that level. 

 

EA, the devil of the industry, pays its developers $90-100k on average with great benefits. 

Quote

 

Nice argument you have there. I guess I'll just answer in the same way as you did: "No it doesn't".

Just off the top of my head, here's a game trailer that I accidentally stumbled upon an hour ago while browsing VK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBBWudCldxM

Obviously it's not a masterpiece, but it is being done by one guy in his spare time.

O N E.

And there are hundreds of projects like this being done.

And the vast majority of them are either total crap or never get made. They're no replacement for dedicated studios with hundreds of millions in resources.

Quote

Once again, you operate on the basis of information that's been outdated for almost a decade. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to spend "tens of millions of dollars" to make a game that looks good enough. ATOM RPG (again, just one of dozens of examples off the top of my head) was created for a budget of $33K (that's thirty three thousand dollars).

And it looks like crap. I don't want games to be either online-only MMOs or perpetually locked in the level of the 90s (even though I still play games from that time).

Quote

I don't give a flying frak about "the vast majority of people". I care about great games being made. 

The vast majority of people disagree with you about what constitutes a "good game." One of them is me. Thus, why I consider this an issue, and you may not. Which is fine for, you I guess, but other people actually like modern AAA single player games.

3 hours ago, Enguzrad said:

Yes, I said the same ("Sure, there probably wouldn't be any AAA ultra realistic graphics games anymore,...").
Point is the only high-quality thing here are the graphics and voice acting. The actual gameplay is on par with what we had 10 years ago (sometimes worse, depends on microtransactions). There is nothing wrong with liking high fidelity graphics, but you can make serviceable looking yet fun small game in your free time. Thats why I am not worried about games being profitable (don't take it as a support for piracy though, I do buy my games).

It's not just graphics and voice acting, though both of those are a big issue (particularly the latter). It's also just presentation/polish in general as well as depth of mechanics. When all of this is considered I don't see how an indie dev could ever make something like, say, Fallout New Vegas.

Quote

Yes, thats why I said "some". I agree there is too much scamming there. Though too many people will throw money on promises. You could say publishers were scamming people for a long time already with unfinished products, preorders and now GAAS.

I don't consider any of the above scams. You get what you pay for and there's tons of information available on what you're buying. Crowd funding, on the other hand, is a complete crapshoot. They can take your money, give you nothing in return, and there's nothing you can do about it. Additionally, there's no real oversight and no real incentive for them to do what they say. Even actually good indie games like Minecraft fell into this trap (prior to becoming, well, not indie, thanks to Microsoft). That game was alpha funded; this is better than crowdfunding because you actually have to show the customer something first, then they pay you, and you promise to give them more later. But when the developer got his millions he stopped bothering to develop the game, there is a chart someone compiled that showed he spent over 50% of 2011 on vacation. The final product was also nothing like what was promised, showing how easy it is to scam people with such a funding scheme in even the most high-profile scenario.

Quote

Could you elaborate on that? How would a bunch of friends be unable to work on game in their free time? Heck, what would push small developers out of the market? People buy indies now, the same people will buy them in future. The market for those games may be small but it is there.

"Hobbyists" will not crank out games to the same extent that full studios will: these are, after all, thousands of man hours worth of work, even if the tools themselves advance to the point where they cost nothing. A consistent stream of good games, even indie ones, are only viable if the devs can do it full time and are compensated for their work.

 

The problem with that? Well, there are two. One, indie developers are in the same boat as AAA developers: if they're not making a multiplayer game riddled with microtransactions (cf. Star Citizen), then they're effectively losing money when opportunity cost is considered.

 

Two, the elephant in the room, digital piracy. Entire companies have folded because of it. While the exact figure varies, PC indie games without significant DRM tend to have around a 90% piracy rate. World of Goo had that. Some games, such as Heavy Hogur, can get a 98% piracy rate.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/11/acrying-shame-world-of-goo-piracy-rate-near-90/

http://m.slashdot.org/story/139522

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JakubKasztalski/20171027/308436/So_5245_of_People_Playing_my_Indie_Game_Have_Pirated_it.php

 

http://forums.indiegamer.com/threads/confirmed-98-piracy-ratio.23669/

 

https://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/03/22/indie-developer-sells-300000-copies-game-finds-1-million-pirated-copies/

 

Even 'casual' games get 92%+ rates:
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/108301/Casual_Games_and_Piracy_The_Truth.php

 

...and games that cost literally 1 cent to purchase get 25% rates.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/100576-Who-Would-Pirate-the-One-Cent-Humble-Indie-Bundle

 

This means only the most insanely successful games can survive in spite of said piracy, essentially off of donations. How do you get around piracy (beyond actually enforcing penalties on everyone which no one is going to bother to do)? Make the game always-online. This has consistently been found to be the absolute best way of proofing it. Online games like League of Legends and World of Warcraft are a far larger percentage of the gaming market these days than ever before, and there is no significant piracy of MMOs and similar games because the server data is kept secret. You literally have to physically steal the hard drive from a company server and even then your pirate server is going to be out of date and really crappy.

 

A good example of this trend in action is China. People in China are primarily PC gamers, and play all types of games. In fact, China is the biggest gaming market in the entire world, having surpassed the U.S. two years ago. But the only games that Chinese studios make are multiplayer always-online ones (F2P FPSes, MMOs, freemium mobile games, etc.). I'm serious, check; it's every single one. Why? Because it's essentially impossible for any other types of games to make money. There is no mass output of single player passion projects in China, even though Chinese gamers DO like to play single player games (we know, because Western and Japanese games are pirated or bootlegged en masse on there), and even though China itself is the world's largest producer of programmers (and second largest producer of software developers). Instead, the whole sub-market is just dead.

 

This shift is happening right now, and it worries me. We can't close this box. In 20 years, single player AAA games may very well be extinct, and single player game output in general declined significantly outside of mods for decades-old games and engines. I don't see any way to reverse this.

Edited by RandomGuy

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

Hawken

 

It was a somewhat faster paced version of Mechwarrior Online, with smaller maps, almost no customization, and everything was effectively locked behind microtransactions. Oh, and most of the purchased stuff was still time limited. (would go away in a day/week/month) It also liked to put all the free players on one team, and all the paying players on the other, so the paying people always won. (it was completely pay2win)

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, BTGBullseye said:

It was a somewhat faster paced version of Mechwarrior Online, with smaller maps, almost no customization, and everything was effectively locked behind microtransactions. Oh, and most of the purchased stuff was still time limited. (would go away in a day/week/month) It also liked to put all the free players on one team, and all the paying players on the other, so the paying people always won. (it was completely pay2win)

I swear, I think it had AI bots though, I would've been fine with just playing against AIs, I'm not that hardcore into multiplayer games to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Yeah, YouTuber Law guy is pretty good one, a lot better than Lennard who sufferes from lack of attention to detail and coherent production. Though it's funny how he calls you "Ms. Scott" :D

 

P.S. And yes, his solution is actually quite good. Provide incentive, so big companies will start doing it for profit and small companies will do that because it's cool. And if will create a clear single repository you may commit stuff to, which is a lot easier than inventing your own solutions - just put it into library of sorts and then it's library problem. It works for books.

 

Edited by NightNord

Share this post


Link to post

 

18 hours ago, RandomGuy said:

And the vast majority of them are either total crap or never get made.
"Hobbyists" will not crank out games to the same extent that full studios will

Don't forget there is much more hobby developers than studios. High waste rate is not an issue. Also with less good games each year, people should be more willing to pay for them since market will be starved. Unless they would be content with what already exists but if that was the case games already wouldn't make any money.

Quote

And it looks like crap.

Matter of opinion. Looks good to me. Only the animations look bad.

Quote

The vast majority of people disagree with you about what constitutes a "good game."

Vast majority of people seems to be fine with always online games and heavy microtransactions. If majority is right then GAAS is the way to go. People wouldn't buy those games otherwise, right?

Quote

It's also just presentation/polish in general as well as depth of mechanics. When all of this is considered I don't see how an indie dev could ever make something like, say, Fallout New Vegas.

Big budget and lot of people doesn't necessarily lead to polish and gameplay depth. If it does then why so many AAA games still have shitty AI, meaningless choices, bullet sponge enemies, primitive modifiers such as +5 damage or 5% to drop loot box on hit, a hundred variations on 5 basic guns, bluntly presented kill x of y quests or tons of bugs on release?
Any seasoned gamer should be able to name some indies with high level of polish and/or deep gameplay (just from top of my head - factorio, brigador, dust elysian tail).

Quote

I don't consider any of the above scams. You get what you pay for and there's tons of information available on what you're buying.

I don't think that there were many people for which games such as EA's SW Battlefront met their expectations. You pay in advance for something they promote as excellent game, true successor etc. and you get shallow experience with barely any content. Sure, they won't just run away with your money but either way I wouldn't say you got what you paid for.
Once the game is out however, then you are right it's on the buyer to be informed. Preorders are not literally scam, people would sue otherwise, just like killing games is not illegal (for now).

Quote

Two, the elephant in the room, digital piracy.

If those high percentages are true and piracy has been running rampant for more than 20 years, how the hell are any indie games being made anymore? They should be bankrupt, yet I still see plenty of new releases.


Also how about:
"GAAS the gamers!" Said the EA officer.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in the community.

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.