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ROSS'S GAME DUNGEON: THE CREW

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I work for a large game company(mobile) , as a 3D artist, and if all the other game companies work in similar ways.. believe me, there are artists in the development teams wanting to make things look natural, with true to life colors and little or no color filters. The issue is that people who make the environments don't have the last word on the subject. If there is some higher level producer or lead who wants a color filter, there's not much we can do to oppose that. You might try to hold your ground, try to change their mind but in the end if they feel it looks "cooler" or more "dramatic" or "cinematic" with a color filter then.. that is it. The best win you can get sometimes is to lessen the intensity of some filters - it can be WAY worse, and if no one would try to oppose it during development, the games would be way more monochromatic..

 

i would probably tell them to fuck off but, I'm usually a very insistent, "in your face" kinda guy, I would probably just straight up refuse to do it and move on and just do more important work

and i refuse to just do more work for nothing, I'm not working extra to make things look worse, piss off, I just don't like this whole "slave till you drop dead" corporate mentality, if something bothers me I don't like to wait around like most people, I try to take a stance and if I can I do try to solve the problem at hand, but if you guys really want this so badly, then you can do it yourselves, or pay me better, how about that

 

work is tiring enough, i don't need more bullshit busy work, in my mind at least

 

When you say "extra work" don't imagine that color filters take a lot of time to add. It's added in seconds. Plus you can't really take that "I won't do it" stance if you'd like to have a good standing in the company. Furthermore if you won't do it, they will get someone who will and really you haven't earned anything but a "difficult to work with" assessment. In the end the best thing you can do is to lessen the harm and maybe (I think) climb up the ladder so you can one day make the big decisions.

 

i don't care about corporate loyalty, i'm just trying to not starve to death, and i can always just find something else to work on, i am disposable to them anyway

i don't give a shit what they think about me, it's completely meaningless, everyone is fake as hell anyway

 

ideally I would move away from corporate, not deepen in, I have my own dreams

 

I don't care about what some big company hotshots think, my life, my choice, i don't want to be a slave my whole life, the pay is not worth it

 

maybe if the pay wasn't complete garbage, but still, I have my own standards, I would rather trust myself, than to rely on others to do the thinking for me

 

i only get to live once, and i can only dream once, might as well do my best, i'm not sacrificing myself for some bullshit job i barely care about, i've got better things to do, as long as I got food, it's all good

 

and i don't need to justify myself, it is extra work, no matter "how easy", and the game still looks like shit in the end, so i think i would have the right to be pretty opposed to such a major (garbage) change - it's more about the mental toll, and how tedious it would be, to add something YOU KNOW is worse, it's like my brain is screaming "YOU KNOW THIS IS AWFUL, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?? STOP IT"

 

i hate this defeatist attitude, i don't care, it is more work, it makes the game look worse, and I shouldn't have to put up with such bullshit, that's it

 

Also I remember when people where complaining about the Witcher 3 "downgrade". For some odd reason people really liked that horrid green filter the game used to have, instead of the colorful graphics the game has now.

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I feel like this doesn't do justice to the non-filtered graphics.

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This is what the game looks like now, no garbage filters. There are some vignette effects, and it wouldn't surprise me if the game had really subtle color correction, but it looks a whole lot better than with the green filter.

IcQVGZZ.jpg

 

This game sure as hell looks nice. The environment is kinda empty but, I really like the overall color, next gen games with good colors CAN BE done.

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SEE6tR4.jpg

 

This is what giving up looks like, do you really want every game to look like this?

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(This is not a magazine scan, this is what it looks like on the official EA website)

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I work for a large game company(mobile) , as a 3D artist, and if all the other game companies work in similar ways.. believe me, there are artists in the development teams wanting to make things look natural, with true to life colors and little or no color filters. The issue is that people who make the environments don't have the last word on the subject. If there is some higher level producer or lead who wants a color filter, there's not much we can do to oppose that. You might try to hold your ground, try to change their mind but in the end if they feel it looks "cooler" or more "dramatic" or "cinematic" with a color filter then.. that is it. The best win you can get sometimes is to lessen the intensity of some filters - it can be WAY worse, and if no one would try to oppose it during development, the games would be way more monochromatic..
Thanks for clearing that up, I was wondering how this stuff happened. It didn't occur to me that it's the producer calling the shots, they have a stupid idea in their head, so that's what's done. I think I read before some game executives are wannabe movie producers, so they'll bring over the same mentality, not understanding or caring that it's the same thing (I forget where I read that though). I may mention this in a followup episode.

 

Anyway, it's a reminder of how top-down large scale game development is. This is one of the reasons mid-level studios make a lot of my favorite games, you'll have people at every level who are invested in the game.

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Well... I don't have much to comment on the graphics and filters like everyone else here did, but I can make a commentary on the "story" portion of this game.

 

I didn't played The Crew, so all I know about it's plot is what Ross said in the video. But I've played Tom Clancy's The Division, also published by Ubisoft, and that game's plot invoked on me the same mixed feelings Ross had.

 

On the plus side, The Division's protagonist is the kind of "cardboard" I can get behind: It's a customised character with zero backstory and zero dialogue. As much as some people love to mock the "silent protagonist" trope, I think some games benefit by sticking with it. If the objective of the game is to immerse the player and want him/her to explore this world they have created and meet it's people, it's better to have a blank sheet where it's up to your imagination than a guy that's trying to fake a personality and a motivation. But just like in The Crew, everything and everyone else feels like cardboard. There are no memorable characters, no memorable antagonists, the last mission is just a excuse to enter the Dead Zone, the PvP-centric portion of the game, and it ends with a cliffhanger.

 

I see both games as two sides of a coin. The Crew is the game that didn't need a complex plot, but they decided to shoehorn one because they are "artsy" like that, while The Division story could be interesting, but it's undercooked thanks to it's open-world nature and Ubisoft's wanting to play "safe". And I bring up "open-world" here because that's the trend Ubisoft wants to follow: Games with massive "worlds" to explore, and not much ambition on everything else. Oh, and also adopting the "games as a service" model and shoving up that horrible Uplay DRM. (EDIT: Did I forgot something else? Oh, right! Also "realism")

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So Ross, I just thought I’d put this out there. When you were trashing Human Revolution, I pointed out that most if not all of your criticism was based on extremely subjective criteria, like “I don’t like exaggerated clothing styles, so it’s bad” or “This reminds me of anime which I don’t like, so it’s bad” or “This game’s politics don’t sufficiently align with mine, so it’s bad.” And here, I think you’ve indulged in an even more subjective view.

 

Surely, you must realize that almost no one plays driving games to aimlessly drive through the environments, no matter how nice they are. The environment in a racing game is like the condiments on food—if the only thing a restaurant has going for it is a huge selection of good condiments, but the food is just mediocre, of course the restaurant is only going to be perceived as a mediocre, because people go to restaurants for food not condiments. So you can’t really be surprised that this game was dismissed as mediocre—the only reason you have any interest in it it’s because of your extremely niche taste for going on Sunday drives in video game worlds. For most people (at least the ones this game was aimed at) if they wanted to go on a road trip they would just go on one.

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Surely, you must realize that almost no one plays driving games to aimlessly drive through the environments, no matter how nice they are.

 

that's pretty much the main reason as to why I wanted the crew though :lol:

 

i loved doing that in nfs underground, and in gran turismo 3, just chillin', driving around slowly, and soaking in the environment, I honestly thought I was the only one who did that, i think you might be generalizing a bit too much, but there are people who do like to do just that

 

forza apex also has some really nice environments, the brazilian track is really cool, i wish i could glitch out and drive outside of it

 

the trackmania games are also another notable example, i loved to glitch out into the city in united, by placing a billion boosters, on the island map (or maybe that was Bay?)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcCFhxyW6k8

so cozy

 

i like to call this, "videogame appreciation", you know, you just chill around, observe, and that's it, it's cool

i seriously miss playing trackmania on win xp, in the Rally map, making this cozy ass village, with castle roads, moats and all sorts of cool shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SABdxL07JcM

 

trackmania 1 doesn't run on win 10 though.... BLAH

 

I think you’ve indulged in an even more subjective view.

 

well it's ROSS's GAME dungeon, not BILLY BOB's game dungeon, he can say whatever he wants, in my mind at least, you don't have to agree with him necessarily, but saying that it's subjective, is a bit redundant, when that's pretty much the whole point

it's not like I agree with ross 100% either, but arguing about it is kinda meaningless to me (i'm not trying to be negative about you, just in case :mrgreen:)

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most if not all of your criticism was based on extremely subjective criteria, like “I don’t like exaggerated clothing styles, so it’s bad” or “This reminds me of anime which I don’t like, so it’s bad” or “This game’s politics don’t sufficiently align with mine, so it’s bad.”

That's... kind of bullshit, sorry.

Ross explicitly said that neither flamboyant clothing, nor anime undertones are "bad". They just do not belong to a Deus Ex prequel.

Hell, he even dedicated one of the show's awards to the fact that this game is actually really good, if it is considered outside the context of the Deus Ex universe.

As for the politics, they didn't "align" badly with someone's taste. They were just objectively poorly done.

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So Ross, I just thought I’d put this out there. When you were trashing Human Revolution, I pointed out that most if not all of your criticism was based on extremely subjective criteria, like “I don’t like exaggerated clothing styles, so it’s bad” or “This reminds me of anime which I don’t like, so it’s bad” or “This game’s politics don’t sufficiently align with mine, so it’s bad.” And here, I think you’ve indulged in an even more subjective view.

 

Surely, you must realize that almost no one plays driving games to aimlessly drive through the environments, no matter how nice they are. The environment in a racing game is like the condiments on food—if the only thing a restaurant has going for it is a huge selection of good condiments, but the food is just mediocre, of course the restaurant is only going to be perceived as a mediocre, because people go to restaurants for food not condiments. So you can’t really be surprised that this game was dismissed as mediocre—the only reason you have any interest in it it’s because of your extremely niche taste for going on Sunday drives in video game worlds. For most people (at least the ones this game was aimed at) if they wanted to go on a road trip they would just go on one.

I think you're misinterpreting a lot of what I said about Human Revolution. I wasn't trying to lambast the clothing styles at all, I think they would be great in an original intellectual property that would be less restrained being held back by Deus Ex. In fact, I'm kind of curious about the Nier:Automata game since that looks wild and imaginative, the sort of thing that HR might be better suited for thematically.

 

As Scumcoder said, I was judging it as a prequel. I think that's completely fair, if not expected. If there was a new Doom game that didn't involve demons and was focused on conflict between factions in the Middle East, I wouldn't smile upon that kindly either. Not because it's necessarily a bad game, but because it's not Doom, but is calling itself that. In fact, I've noticed a lot, if not all of the people who disagree with me the most fervently on my Human Revolution video never played the original Deus Ex.

As for politics, I honestly don't remember bringing that up in the Human Revolution one. What I was relentless about was the unrelaistic human behavior and how the themes were far more narrow and contrived than the original's. That's not the same thing as disagreeing with the politics. What politics in Human Revolution did I disagree with?

 

As for The Crew, I almost addressed this in the video, but decided to chop it out. You can say that most people playing driving games aren't interested in the environment. I have a few responses to that:

 

1. I completely acknowledge different people like driving games for different reasons. Some people want Project Cars, some people want Outrun 2006, two totally different games appealing to different audiences. I happen to care about the environment of the game.

2. The sales figures of Euro Truck Simulator 2 would suggest otherwise that people don't care about the "exploration driving" kinds of games. It's literally sold more copies than The Crew.

3. Fine, let's say the target demographic is NOT people who care about exploring the environment. Then, why make it the second largest driving game in history if you don't want players to care about the environment?

 

The line I cut from the video was something like:

 

"This would be like rendering and recreating the entire city of Hong Kong in Street Fighter 2 just to show it as a background for Chun-Li's fighting stage"

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Hey Ross. When are you going to upload uncompressed version if this video? Is it before June 14 or still going to be a while?

 

I created an account here just to ask this, because I though It would be more likely for you to see it here.

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Hey Ross. When are you going to upload uncompressed version if this video? Is it before June 14 or still going to be a while?

 

I created an account here just to ask this, because I though It would be more likely for you to see it here.

Well, an "uncompressed" version would be about 533GB, so never, but I know what you mean.

 

Really my main hold up is I don't know what filesize I should be aiming for. The copy I uploaded to Youtube was a little under 10GB. I normally don't compress the videos more than that, but that might be a bit big for people to want to grab.

 

In handbrake, I did some tests, for those that are curious:

 

RF level 24: 5.38GB

RF level 26: 3.87GB

RF level 28: 2.71GB

RF level 30: 1.85GB

 

I still have the losslessly compressed version on my drive at around 200GB, but I don't want to hang onto it forever. I guess some feedback on what quality level v. size it is people are looking for would be helpful.

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Hey Ross. When are you going to upload uncompressed version if this video? Is it before June 14 or still going to be a while?

 

I created an account here just to ask this, because I though It would be more likely for you to see it here.

Well, an "uncompressed" version would be about 533GB, so never, but I know what you mean.

 

Really my main hold up is I don't know what filesize I should be aiming for. The copy I uploaded to Youtube was a little under 10GB. I normally don't compress the videos more than that, but that might be a bit big for people to want to grab.

 

In handbrake, I did some tests, for those that are curious:

 

RF level 24: 5.38GB

RF level 26: 3.87GB

RF level 28: 2.71GB

RF level 30: 1.85GB

 

I still have the losslessly compressed version on my drive at around 200GB, but I don't want to hang onto it forever. I guess some feedback on what quality level v. size it is people are looking for would be helpful.

 

i think after you reach a certain file size, anything bigger is just placebo, it'll probably get butchered by the youtube compression seeing as they need to make the videos as small as possible anyway, so having more data is redundant, when it'll get squished into 600 mbs or whatever the size is for the average hour long video, the compression is pretty much your main enemy, and there's nothing you can really do about it, youtube simply has to hold too much data, so they can't afford to have such large videos, and this compression issue is the reason i gave up on youtube, no matter what i did, my videos just looked like crap once i uploaded them

 

the crew is a game with a ton of movement, so whenever you move the camera, the youtube compression algorithm is trying to merge all that data at once, and it's doing a poor job at it

 

up to youtube to create a better compression algorithm, which doesn't butcher moving videos, while keeping a low filesize

it'll probably be some ai based\neural network thing, wouldn't surprise me if they just bruteforced the problem with some scripted AI

 

just throw data at the "AI" and let it do the hard work for you

 

if you want your videos to look good on youtube, have as many static shots as possible, and avoid moving the camera too quickly

 

swing the camera around, and there goes the quality

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As for politics, I honestly don't remember bringing that up in the Human Revolution one. What I was relentless about was the unrelaistic human behavior and how the themes were far more narrow and contrived than the original's. That's not the same thing as disagreeing with the politics. What politics in Human Revolution did I disagree with?

 

The original Deus Ex was all about conspiracy theories about the corporate elite controlling society from the shadows being true—i.e it flattered your politics. Human Revolution was about discrimination, and that was not to your taste, so you weren’t interested; you picked apart the idea of augmentation as a basis for discrimination, but you felt little need to pick apart the conspiracy theories in the original. So using the idea of augmented people being discriminated against as a signpost for discrimination in our society is no good because it’s not realistic; but using conspiracy theories as a signpost for the problematic concentration of power around the wealthy in our society is A-OK, even if those conspiracy theories are unrealistic.

 

But I’ve already said everything I wanted to say about HR in that thread. We will never see eye to eye.

 

As for The Crew, I almost addressed this in the video, but decided to chop it out. You can say that most people playing driving games aren't interested in the environment. I have a few responses to that:

 

1. I completely acknowledge different people like driving games for different reasons. Some people want Project Cars, some people want Outrun 2006, two totally different games appealing to different audiences. I happen to care about the environment of the game.

2. The sales figures of Euro Truck Simulator 2 would suggest otherwise that people don't care about the "exploration driving" kinds of games. It's literally sold more copies than The Crew.

3. Fine, let's say the target demographic is NOT people who care about exploring the environment. Then, why make it the second largest driving game in history if you don't want players to care about the environment?

 

The line I cut from the video was something like:

 

"This would be like rendering and recreating the entire city of Hong Kong in Street Fighter 2 just to show it as a background for Chun-Li's fighting stage"

 

1. I was pointing out that you said you were shocked that the game received almost no coverage or hype— I simply explained why you really shouldn’t be surprised.

2. I never said there wasn’t a niche for this sort of game, just that you shouldn’t really be surprised it’s small. Euro Truck Simulator sold 300k; Need for Speed: Most Wanted sold 16 million.

3. I didn’t say that that wasn’t the target demographic, just that you really shouldn’t be surprised it isn’t very big.

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But I’ve already said everything I wanted to say about HR in that thread. We will never see eye to eye.

 

2016? man talk about a grudge :lol::mrgreen:

 

i honestly barely remember what he even said in that episode to be honest, but I think a big point was, how HR to him felt less like a Deus Ex game, and more like an entirely different game, and how he would've been fine, as long as it had a different name, or something like that? i really don't remember, sorry

 

i don't know, i feel like even though i disagree about some of the stuff he said , it feels like arguing about it won't lead to much, the whole show is pretty subjective, so i can't really say that ross is wrong, i mean, it is his opinion at the end of the day, that's just how he feels like about the game, but i'm the type to just kinda shrugh it off, and i just move on usually, i'm not sure how to explain myself

 

even though i disagree with ross sometimes, i don't feel like it's that big of a deal, you can still like human revolutions for your own reasons in my mind

i get that it might not seem fair, but you can't control someone's thoughts, and i wouldn't get too obsessed over trying to change them, it generally doesn't work from i've seen, at the end of the day ross is some stranger on the internet, not a family member who you sit down and talk to about, anything, i think just giving out your opinion once is good enough, people either accept it over time, and do consider it, or just never bother considering it at all, from my own experience at least, i'm pretty open to new ideas though, even if i look contrarian or reluctant, i always open up

 

people on the internet just take to people not liking things they do like themselves, a bit too personally for my tastes, i think people need to chill out, at the end of the day, what matters the most is that we all enjoy ourselves, and i feel like people could be less mean overall, i wish people could just focus on the having fun part, instead of always focusing on the negative

 

i just wish we could all get along, you know? i don't think it's a healty habit, to hold a grudge over a simple game for so long, it's a bit too much even for me

 

but i don't know, this is just an internet forum about games, there's no need to be that pendatic all the time, i think you should just replay human revolutions, have a good time with it, and just move on

Edited by Guest

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Hey Ross. When are you going to upload uncompressed version if this video? Is it before June 14 or still going to be a while?

 

I created an account here just to ask this, because I though It would be more likely for you to see it here.

Well, an "uncompressed" version would be about 533GB, so never, but I know what you mean.

 

Really my main hold up is I don't know what filesize I should be aiming for. The copy I uploaded to Youtube was a little under 10GB. I normally don't compress the videos more than that, but that might be a bit big for people to want to grab.

 

In handbrake, I did some tests, for those that are curious:

 

RF level 24: 5.38GB

RF level 26: 3.87GB

RF level 28: 2.71GB

RF level 30: 1.85GB

 

I still have the losslessly compressed version on my drive at around 200GB, but I don't want to hang onto it forever. I guess some feedback on what quality level v. size it is people are looking for would be helpful.

 

I wouldn't mind the 10 GB version to be honest. That is coming from someone who downloaded a 37 GB copy of the first star wars movie though. Here the thing: I think the people who care about smaller file size probably wouldn't go out of there way to download a internet video anyway. They can just watch it on youtube. The reason why you'd want to download it is to get the best quality version. Or at least it is for me. The video is almost 50 min anyway. I would also be happy with 5.38GB but I definitely wouldn't go with 1.85GB.

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But I’ve already said everything I wanted to say about HR in that thread. We will never see eye to eye.

 

2016? man talk about a grudge :lol::mrgreen:

 

i honestly barely remember what he even said in that episode to be honest, but I think a big point was, how HR to him felt less like a Deus Ex game, and more like an entirely different game, and how he would've been fine, as long as it had a different name, or something like that? i really don't remember, sorry

 

i don't know, i feel like even though i disagree about some of the stuff he said , it feels like arguing about it won't lead to much, the whole show is pretty subjective, so i can't really say that ross is wrong, i mean, it is his opinion at the end of the day, that's just how he feels like about the game, but i'm the type to just kinda shrugh it off, and i just move on usually, i'm not sure how to explain myself

 

even though i disagree with ross sometimes, i don't feel like it's that big of a deal, you can still like human revolutions for your own reasons in my mind

i get that it might not seem fair, but you can't control someone's thoughts, and i wouldn't get too obsessed over trying to change them, it generally doesn't work from i've seen, at the end of the day ross is some stranger on the internet, not a family member who you sit down and talk to about, anything, i think just giving out your opinion once is good enough, people either accept it over time, and do consider it, or just never bother considering it at all, from my own experience at least, i'm pretty open to new ideas though, even if i look contrarian or reluctant, i always open up

 

people on the internet just take to people not liking things they do like themselves, a bit too personally for my tastes, i think people need to chill out, at the end of the day, what matters the most is that we all enjoy ourselves, and i feel like people could be less mean overall, i wish people could just focus on the having fun part, instead of always focusing on the negative

 

i just wish we could all get along, you know? i don't think it's a healty habit, to hold a grudge over a simple game for so long, it's a bit too much even for me

 

but i don't know, this is just an internet forum about games, there's no need to be that pendatic all the time, i think you should just replay human revolutions, have a good time with it, and just move on

 

I’m not holding (much of) a grudge; likewise, I agree that there isn’t much point arguing about endlessly when you have a difference in opinion on something subjective like a video game’s quality. But I’m not taking it personally—I just gave Ross money (not a lot but some) so obliviously I’m more satisfied with him than not. I actually enjoyed the video for the most part.

 

In my experience with YouTubers that are worth a damn, they quite frequently build up a following that is completely uncritical, which I think does nothing for the quality of their content. Ross gets plenty of positive reinforcement here and elsewhere, so sometimes I take it upon myself to give him a little ribbing.

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In my experience with YouTubers that are worth a damn, they quite frequently build up a following that is completely uncritical, which I think does nothing for the quality of their content. Ross gets plenty of positive reinforcement here and elsewhere, so sometimes I take it upon myself to give him a little ribbing.

 

it's ok, i'm not a fan of endless (meaningless) compliments

 

sometimes I NEED people to be critical but, i can barely get something useful out of them - compliments are a bit embarassing to me if anything, it kinda implises that my work is done, even though i've just gotten started, or maybe i'm not that happy with the work i made myself, not yet at least

 

i don't mind such comments, if anything i read them more than the blind praise, at least i feel like i might find something i missed out on, or it might confirm a feeling i had on some specific thought i had

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The original Deus Ex was all about conspiracy the[/size]ories about the corporate elite controlling society from the shadows being true—i.e it flattered your politics. Human Revolution was about discrimination, and that was not to your taste, so you weren’t interested; you picked apart the idea of augmentation as a basis for discrimination, but you felt little need to pick apart the conspiracy theories in the original. So using the idea of augmented people being discriminated against as a signpost for discrimination in our society is no good because it’s not realistic; but using conspiracy theories as a signpost for the problematic concentration of power around the wealthy in our society is A-OK, even if those conspiracy theories are unrealistic.
Look, I don't know if you're doing it on purpose, but the reality is what you're doing is gaslighting. We're not going to have a productive conversation from that.

 

You say "I felt little need to pick apart the conspiracy theories from the original." Is that what you call me quoting Eisenhower, giving figures on the military industrial complex, large media conglomerate merging, analyzing the shift in terrorism coverage, and how new institutions were formed and constitutional rights were altered after. If that's not picking things apart enough, I think you'll have to look elsewhere for more serious coverage of a videogame.

 

The original had MANY themes, conspiracy theories being one of them. I outright dismissed some things as "fun game stuff" when talking about the stories, not meant to be taken very seriously and said as much in the video. Things like the greys, augmentation, giant mechs, exploding men in black, etc. For the most part, the game didn't take those elements very seriously either. I'd say the game took themes like terrorism, poverty, disease, role of government power, etc. more seriously and I tried to touch on some of those also. I WAS critical of things like the police tactics, as I was in Human Revolution also.

 

In Human Revolution, it basically just had ONE theme, transhumanism, with discrimination being a part of that. I didn't think the premise was very believable, so I was critical of it because the game itself was treating it seriously. Even if I was suspending my disbelief however, I found the human behavior unbelievable also, so I found it failing on both levels. Hacking for example, was more of a fun game element, which neither the game nor I took very seriously, thus I wasn't critical of it. The clothing is an example where by itself, would simply be a fun game element, but in a prequel, it was a clear divergence from the source material thematically. I only took apart the theme of augmentation because the game itself took it so seriously. It's not the theme of discrimination I have a problem with, it's handling it poorly as a sole theme in an already established franchise that was known for a more multi-dimensional look at the world.

 

The basis of your argument so far is attributing things to me that I didn't do when I did do them, or that I did do when I didn't do them. Again, I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally, but you're basically characterizing me as someone else in your mind, then arguing that. That's not an honest way of conducting a conversation, I don't really see the point of continuing this if that's your approach.

 

1. I was pointing out that you said you were shocked that the game received almost no coverage or hype— I simply explained why you really shouldn’t be surprised.

2. I never said there wasn’t a niche for this sort of game, just that you shouldn’t really be surprised it’s small. Euro Truck Simulator sold 300k; Need for Speed: Most Wanted sold 16 million.

3. I didn’t say that that wasn’t the target demographic, just that you really shouldn’t be surprised it isn’t very big.

And again, we have sort of a less direct form of gaslighting.

 

First off, Euro Truck Simulator 2 sold 4.5 million copies. I would not call that "extremely niche", and it undermines your other points, but it's clear you thought I was talking about the original at 300k copies, so fine, let's go with that. Your original statements say:

 

"Surely, you must realize that almost no one plays driving games to aimlessly drive through the environments, no matter how nice they are."

"For most people (at least the ones this game was aimed at) if they wanted to go on a road trip they would just go on one."

 

but then you go and say:

 

"I didn’t say that that wasn’t the target demographic, just that you really shouldn’t be surprised it isn’t very big."

 

You JUST SAID the people that this game was aimed at are people who don't care about driving around aimlessly in the environment, then you reply and say you DIDN'T say that people who care about the environment aren't the target demographic. Well logically, they CAN'T be the target demographic if they're not being aimed at, in your words. Except, now you're saying the exact opposite, and claiming you didn't say anything to the contrary, except you did.

 

This is gaslighting. At best, you're being hypocritical and strawmanning me without meaning to. At worst, you're just trolling. Either way, this isn't how you conduct an honest conversation, so I'm not going further with it. I'll never convince you the sky is blue if you see it as green and are claiming I said it's red.

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This is gaslighting. At best, you're being hypocritical and strawmanning me without meaning to.

 

gaslighting = putting words in your mouth?

 

sorry i never really heard of the term, i never really understood what "straw manning" ment either

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This is gaslighting. At best, you're being hypocritical and strawmanning me without meaning to.

 

gaslighting = putting words in your mouth?

 

sorry i never really heard of the term, i never really understood what "straw manning" ment either

Gaslighting is when you psychologically manipulate someone into believing they're going insane.

 

Strawmanning is the informal logical fallacy of erecting an easier to defeat version of your opponent's argument and defeating that instead of the actual argument.

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This is gaslighting. At best, you're being hypocritical and strawmanning me without meaning to.

 

gaslighting = putting words in your mouth?

 

sorry i never really heard of the term, i never really understood what "straw manning" ment either

Gaslighting is when you psychologically manipulate someone into believing they're going insane.

 

uhhhh what

 

that might be a bit much for me to take in

 

guess i better hope, no one will ever try to drive me insane? :lol:

sorry i just have nothing to add... like... sure? i'll take that i guess, it's not what i was expecting at all, and i'm not sure if i really understand why, but i feel like i honestly don't want to learn more, after THAT response

 

Strawmanning is the informal logical fallacy of erecting an easier to defeat version of your opponent's argument and defeating that instead of the actual argument.

 

sheesh, can't you guys just go out for a beer or something :lol:

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