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ROSS’S GAME DUNGEON: SONIC HEROES

New Game Dungeon! This took way, way longer than it was supposed to. The original plan was to have this be under 20 minutes released last month. Instead, the game hit me pretty hard so I just didn’t want to leave so much out. Anyway, it’s finally done and I’m pretty happy with it, though I’m really going to have to go back to shorter episodes for a while. I think I figured out the source of some of my problems in the game since I made it, but not all of them.

On another note, I discovered a bug in Premiere hours ago, where it simply interpreted FRAPS footage improperly. It actually caused stalled frames and the timing to change. This came as a bit of a shock as I didn’t notice it until very late in the process. Re-encoding into another lossless codec solved the problem, but I wasn’t going to do that for 1.5TB of footage (the gameplay was recorded losslessly) without delaying the video another day at least. I solved the most egregious problems, but it’s possible there are some small problems left in there that I missed. I can release one of the problematic clips for testing if people are interested, though I should see if I can chop it without re-encoding as it’s about 30GB on its own. For anyone critical of fraps, feel free to recommend software for recording DirectX 5-8 content with hardware antialiasing enabled (it may not behave how you think).

Freeman’s Mind next! Should come much faster!

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oh yeah i forgot, ross i don't think you have gamer dementia, the game is just badly designed

 

the checkpoints

 

why the hell are the checkpoints, something which you need to PHISICALLY touch, in most games, they are invisible, and you often can't even tell that you got past one, that's just a game design fuck up, period

 

the grind sections

 

ratchet & clank never had any of these issues, here's a rail section from the new game (what do you know, IT WORKS PERFECTLY FINE)

 

i know that this looks really lame, but i can't find any examples to prove just how crappy the sonic heroes grind system is

 

 

it's not gamer dementia, it's game developer dementia

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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16 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

the checkpoints

 

why the hell are the checkpoints, something which you need to PHISICALLY touch, in most games, they are invisible, and you often can't even tell that you got past one, that's just a game design fuck up, period

Sonic games have always had visible checkpoints you needed to physically touch, so I don't know where your complaint lies here. Should they have made the checkpoint itself in Heroes wider or bigger? Probably, but it's right in your face, even if Ross completely skipped it quite a few times. I never had a problem touching those checkpoints myself even when I played Heroes as a kid, so.

 

16 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

the grind sections

 

ratchet & clank never had any of these issues, here's a rail section from the new game (what do you know, IT WORKS PERFECTLY FINE)

[video example]

I will concede that Heroes' rail grinding mechanics (more specifically, it's rail switching mechanics) are rather crap. However:

 

1. You're comparing the rail grinding mechanics of a 17+ year old game by devs who, regardless of their talent or lack thereof, may have been crunching to get the game off, to a modern game with better time and budget and a better handle on game design due to years of experience.

2. Ratchet and Clank's rail grinding mechanics are more automated than that of Sonic's. From what I can see of the video example, you don't really control the speed or momentum of how fast you grind, unlike in most Sonic games that feature rails.

3. More importantly, later Sonic games would handle rail grinding (and specifically rail switching) much better, as early as fuckin' Shadow the Hedgehog. (06 doesn't count, obviously.)

Edited by SomethingOther (see edit history)

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30 minutes ago, SomethingOther said:

Sonic games have always had visible checkpoints you needed to physically touch, so I don't know where your complaint lies here. Should they have made the checkpoint itself in Heroes wider or bigger? Probably, but it's right in your face, even if Ross completely skipped it quite a few times. I never had a problem touching those checkpoints myself even when I played Heroes as a kid, so.

players can miss the checkpoint? then it's bad game design

checkpoints should be invisible, period, the fact that u can miss them, is shit, that's it, no excuses here

 

don't blame the playa, blame the game

 

the R&C grind sections are functional, the sonic heroes ones aren't (they are not even functionally correct, half the time shit just bugs out)

and then, you have the complete lack of consistency, the rail sections in heroes work when they feel like it, which is dumb, the end result should always be the same, random jumps shouldn't screw you over

 

R&C1 came out in 2002, and it never had these issues, your guy wouldn't just fly off if you changed lanes, team sonic has no excuses, they are just bad at game making, and they suck at really basic game design choices, they should've caught on early

 

also team sonic already had games with rail sections in them, why did it take them so long, to figure out how to get any of them to work properly, without constantly being broken, i'm not gonna justify incompetent game developers

 

back to checkpoints

okay let me ask you a question then

 

WHY WOULD YOU EVER, SKIP A CHECKPOINT

WHY WOULD YOU EVER, NOT USE IT

 

IF YOU ARE ALWAYS GOING TO ACTIVATE A CHECKPOINT, THEN WHY THE HELL SHOULD IT EVER BE OPTIONAL?

WHY NOT REMOVE THE REDUNDANCY, AND JUST AUTOMATE THE DAMN CHECKPOINTS

 

it's idiotic, come on man, it's really basic game design, this is just videogame nonsense

 

what reason would you have, to NOT use the checkpoint

why the hell, would they design the game to have MISSABLE, CHECKPOINTS

 

who the hell thought this system up? it's the dumbest thing i have ever heard of - seriously, how can anybody justify such a stupid ass design choice, it makes no sense, this is on par with the old save system gta games had, where you had to drive to some dumb safehouse, like, jesus christ just let me open the options menu, and let me save, what the hell, why does saving my game need to be so convoluted

 

it's just bad game feng shuei

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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I am very happy Ross recognized the greatness that is This Machine

 

Bomb shelter parties are the best parties because bomb shelter parties don't stop. Until everyone's dead.

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I looked up Amy's bio and come to the conclusion that the reason Sonic isn't that into her isn't because she's prepubescent (I couldn't find her age tbh) but that's she's an over obsessed fan who is stalking him.  From https://sega.fandom.com/wiki/Amy_Rose

 

 

Sonic the Hedgehog is Amy's love-interest as she cares very deeply for the blue hedgehog and marvels at all his personal traits. Most often, Amy gets involved in the story while searching for Sonic or trying to find information about his whereabouts. She tends to plunge ahead at first glimpse of his figure, this prompting unusual confrontations as she embraced both Shadow the Hedgehog during the events of Sonic Adventure 2 as well as Silver the Hedgehog in Sonic '06, though the latter was dissolved as part of the storyline.

 

Post edit: The next dungeon will be on System Shock 2. It has a great soundtrack, it has a great story and not a lot of people have covered it.
 

Edited by xawesomecorex
somehow made the entire body text a hyperlink; (see edit history)

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Ross probably already has plenty of answers to the questions by now, but I'll throw in my own. I'm a die-hard fan of the 2D games to this day and loved the Adventure games and Heroes when they came out, but everything afterwards kind of lost me, so my answers are gonna be molded by those games and not really anything afterwards.

 


1.) In CD and Adventure, Amy was more portrayed as a "fan girl". The kind that'd obsess over a boy band, fantasize about a relationship with the members in it but not really think about it seriously. In Adventure 1 a moment that solidifies that is that she uses Sonic to get into the theme park level for free when he's supposed to be protecting her, then runs in so fast Sonic loses sight of her, and then when she realizes she lost Sonic afterwards she doesn't care that much. Heroes is the game that fully Flanderized her into practically a stalker and it became her only purpose in the plot. I've heard this has been at least partially reverted in newer media, dunno how true that is.

Additionally in CD I get the feeling they don't even know each other at that point, and there's not really a mention of marriage. It is kinda weird in Adventure just because they clearly know each other by that point, but generally I think "star struck romance day dream" is more accurate to her old character.

 


2.) The Liquid Metal Sonic is a lot of very weird specific, convoluted lore just to explain that one cutscene, but it is actually explained! Chaos' DNA (from Adventure, he is a water god thing) is on the Team Rose's Chocola and Froggy. Chocola because Chao are like strange off-shoot breeds of Chaos, maybe his children? And Froggy because in Adventure 1 he swallowed Chaos' tail. So they just both have Chaos DNA. Sonic kidnapping the two in a newspaper was actually Metal Sonic, infusing the DNA let him use Chaos' powers (becoming liquid, and I guess shape shifting). The DNA is also what makes him go rogue and rebel against Eggman and then pretends to be him.

It's a weird plot point. It can't really be called lazy writing because of how takes a ton of really obscure minor details and ties them together kinda coherently? But it's simultaneously just an excuse to make Metal Sonic T-1000 between places and have a bigger eviler bad guy at the end while keeping Eggman through the rest of the game. I dunno, it's weird.

So yeah if I had to guess, Eggman doesn't make more robots like that because he doesn't want Sonic Heroes 2 to exist 😛
 

 

3.) Tails is based off kitsune legends, so that's why he has two tails (and also probably why he's super intelligent). So while the anatomy question is legit... if we go by the logic that Tails is a literal kitsune, then you're also questioning the supernatural and the unknown. (...Basically, this is an excuse to skip this one :V)

 


4.) You're spot on with your assessment: ever since Adventure 1 he's had dialogue talking about destroying cities to make room for Robotnikland. (A level in Sonic Unleashed even takes the idea and turns it into a level). So his end-game is literally just to rule so he can put his face on everything and be able to say he owns the planet. He definitely doesn't seem that interested in governing, but he does want people to follow his every command too.

I wanna add Eggman also is the sole proprietor of the Death Egg. That makes your point even crazier; he matches the raw power of the Empire from Star Wars (or arguably exceeds, with how fast he repairs the Death Egg twice in Sonic 3 & Knuckles) ... as one single man. The Sonic universe would honestly not be able to do anything without Sonic there to stop him, this one hedgehog is the sole reason he isn't able to get away with doing literally anything he wants.

 

Even more, his dialogue in Adventure 1 differs between each character. When you're Sonic, he has his absolute cheesiest lines and goofiest deliveries, and Sonic just makes fun of him the whole way through. As any other character, even during scenes that they witness with Sonic, you get different dialogue with way more intimidating delivery. It paints a picture that Eggman is a terrifying force, just that Sonic is only one who doesn't take him seriously.

 


5.) I think the main argument for Knuckles not being a vampire is that he can exist in the sunlight, but then again, there have been stories where they just get weaker in sunlight. But then again again, that means he probably wouldn't be able to maintain his Super form like that outside if it weakened him. Data inconclusive.

You don't get to see Vampiric Knuckles in 3D unfortunately because Super forms were retconned to be "only male hedgehogs can do it". Which is super (tee hee) lame.

Edited by TehRealSalt (see edit history)

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sonic was a mistake

 

excuse me while i go drown myself

 

 

i stumbled on this instrumental but the quality is kinda bad? i swear i feel like i'm still hearing the voices

 

 

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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Also I mentioned this in the YT comments but I very much appreciate Team Chaotix's theme song too

Makes me want a standalone game about them that isn't weird or trash like Knuckles' Chaotix (this title is grammatically incorrect)

Bomb shelter parties are the best parties because bomb shelter parties don't stop. Until everyone's dead.

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5 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i stumbled on this instrumental but the quality is kinda bad? i swear i feel like i'm still hearing the voices

 

 

 

Someone made a good instrumental using a Midi soundfont

 

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I played this on the PS2 and remember it not being that good.

"I don't trust a man that doesn't have something strange going on about him, cause that means he's hiding it from you. If a man's wearing his pants on his head or if he says his words backwards from time to time, you know it's all laid out there for you. But if he's friendly to strangers and keeps his home spick-and-span, more often than not he's done something even his own ma couldn't forgive." -No-bark Noonan

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what's the difference between eggman and dr robotnik

"You don't get to bring friends."

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26 minutes ago, Icebox said:

I played this on the PS2 and remember it not being that good.

The PS2 version is also the worst version of the game, as the game wasn't originally going to be on the PS2. But Sony told Sega that if they didn't release Sonic Heroes on it, they wouldn't be allowed to release any other games on it. So they had to use the Renderware engine so that they could easily bring the game to the PS2. And the games weren't well optimized for the PS2, which is why Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog are really bad on the PS2.

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36 minutes ago, Chrisfratz said:

[Sonic Heroes] wasn't originally going to be on the PS2. But Sony told Sega that if they didn't release Sonic Heroes on it, they wouldn't be allowed to release any other games on it. So they had to use the Renderware engine so that they could easily bring the game to the PS2. And the games weren't well optimized for the PS2, which is why Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog are really bad on the PS2.

I'm pretty sure that whole thing irt "Sony forcing SEGA to port Heroes on the PS2" is a baseless rumor (and was created to defend Heroes as a game); as far as I can tell, Heroes was always meant to be on the GameCube, [OG] Xbox and the PlayStation 2 - if this and this are of any indication. I think the PS2 ports were just rushed or poorly implemented on their own terms (especially given other Renderware engine titles that were also multiplatform).

Edited by SomethingOther (see edit history)

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17 minutes ago, SomethingOther said:

I'm pretty sure that whole thing irt "Sony forcing SEGA to port Heroes on the PS2" is a baseless rumor (and was created to defend Heroes as a game); as far as I can tell, Heroes was always meant to be on the GameCube, [OG] Xbox and the PlayStation 2 - if this and this are of any indication. I think the PS2 ports were just rushed or poorly implemented on their own terms (especially given other Renderware engine titles that were also multiplatform).

 

Oh, I guess I was wrong, NVM then. That was what I had always heard, and they way people presented that made it seem like it was fact, so I took it as fact. I think I was also too lazy to look it up when I first heard it because I was a young idiot.

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I doubt any platform holder goes around strongarming publishers into porting specific games to their platform with threats to withhold certification on other games. Least of all PlayStation in 2004, which was already the platform every game in the universe was made for or ported to because of its epic install base. That would be the pettiest thing anyone could ever possibly do.

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35 minutes ago, lice said:

Ross, please don't use the R word (21:31)

Not trying to be rude, but I've seen comments like that in RedHotSonic's videos. Which makes sense as his avatar is a red Sonic, which attracts kids, but it's just kinda strange to see that here.

Edited by Chrisfratz (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, lice said:

Ross, please don't use the R word (21:31)

is retarded a bad word? i mean i use it all the time, plus it's not like a medical professional would call his patients retarded LUL

 

maybe i'm weird but i don't see the problem with the word itself, i don't know, i find it really handy to be honest, there's no other word which works as well, it just clicks, i dunno, it's hard to explain

 

doesn't it just mean, slow minded or, something that's BEYOND STUPID or BEYOND IDIOTC? i dunno

 

i mean i'm legit actually asking, i really don't know (i have to say this, otherwise people on the internet are going to get very angry)

Edited by RaTcHeT302 (see edit history)

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6 hours ago, lice said:

Ross, please don't use the R word (21:31)

Do you realize that it was used in the most correct way possible? I.e., to describe the actual medical condition?

Come the full moon, the bat flies whose boiling blood shall stem the tide.

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