Videochat November 2019

That encoding related stuttering you described sounds like a memory leak. Also, were you using Google Hangouts or Gmail while your web browser was open? Those cause memory leaks on my PC all the time.

LInux is great for software development and little niches. But try anything beyond that, and the entire DIY aspect quickly regresses into a cargo cult of little rituals you have to do in order to get what you want out of it

5 hours ago, Im_CIA said:

LInux is great for software development and little niches. But try anything beyond that, and the entire DIY aspect quickly regresses into a cargo cult of little rituals you have to do in order to get what you want out of it

i'm lazy, and windows might be a piece of shit but, if i don't have to see a console window i'm good, plus linux is always such a hassle with everything, i just find it overly complicated, and it really isn't on the accessible side at all

i think asking grandma to understand what sudo and bash are is... beyond the skillset of most people, and i personally hate having to copy paste a buncha stuff, compile some random source code, into a working program, and hope it's what i need

i think the linux user base is definitely on the pretentious side of things, while windows users are just your average joe trying to get boring things done as painlessly as possible - i've always been of the belief, that even the most complex tasks, should be made as simple as possible to do, and that in most cases, complex tasks are only complex, if you present the information poorly

i don't know, double clicking on an .exe file is far more intuitive, than figuring out how to open the console in the first place, which, needs its own set of knowledge, you need to have proficency with an ui, you need to even know what the command line is in the first place, you need to have decent google skills, you need understand how the random commands relate, to the window you opened, you have to learn how to copy paste the commands, you have to execute the commands, you have to find a solution, in the case of failure, and bla bla bla bla

windows? just double click on the thingy, boom, done - jesus linux, windows does things like this for a reason you know, they weren't stupid in the 90s when they designed the OS, it clearly was made with accessibility in mind, it's just that windows 10 and the modern era of ui, care more about big flashy icons, with slow ass interfaces, than pure usability

i mean windows 98 brought to us, a lot of the common functionality, we still use today

1 hour ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

text

You look like you've been in a time capsule for about a decade or so.

Modern Linux distributions are easier to install AND use than Apple, forget Windows.

You absolutely can use nothing but Linux without even seeing the console for months.

I have an elder friend who didn't show Windows to his son, until he turned 13 or 14 years and was forced to use Windows in school. Instead, the first OS this boy saw was Linux. And when he finally had to learn Windows, he was shocked by just how ugly and illogical it is compared to Linux. This is a small example that shows that all those talks about how Linux is “user unfriendly” and “hard to understand” are caused by the fact that people already have their brains raped by Windows. In psychology this is known as “Baby duck syndrome”.

7 hours ago, Im_CIA said:

LInux is great for software development and little niches. But try anything beyond that, and the entire DIY aspect quickly regresses into a cargo cult of little rituals you have to do in order to get what you want out of it

Another opinion from mid-2000s.

There is exactly one thing for which Windows is suited better: games. That's all. Everything except gaming is better done in Linux.

I found out about Linux (almost by accident) in 2008, and by 2010 I wasn't even booting my PC into Windows anymore, aside from gaming. Since I don't play many games, I guess I could just remove the goddamn thing from my HDD to free up some space.

39 minutes ago, ScumCoder said:

You look like you've been in a time capsule for about a decade or so.

Modern Linux distributions are easier to install AND use than Apple, forget Windows.

You absolutely can use nothing but Linux without even seeing the console for months.

 

I have an elder friend who didn't show Windows to his son, until he turned 13 or 14 years and was forced to use Windows in school. Instead, the first OS this boy saw was Linux. And when he finally had to learn Windows, he was shocked by just how ugly and illogical it is compared to Linux. This is a small example that shows that all those talks about how Linux is “user unfriendly” and “hard to understand” are caused by the fact that people already have their brains raped by Windows. In psychology this is known as “Baby duck syndrome”.

i don't know man, if grandma can't browse facebook she won't care about linux

having a great operating system is worthless if there's nobody left to use it

also "raped"? god man, i don't hate linux, sheesh, honestly this just confirms how i feel about the linux users as a whole, come on man, i want everyone to be included, you still get to keep your command line, i never said that i would rip it out, and besides considering how many options you have on linux, i can see it being daunting to pick one OS and to stick with it long term, but with windows that choice is pretty easy - like people are surprised why linux isn't as used, then i present my reasoning, but then i just get treated poorly for talking out loud, almost as if my concerns are somehow unreasonable or outrageous

i just think this is the wrong attitude to go for, we can have something as easy to use as windows, and something as advanced for more experienced users, i don't understand why we always have to sit onto the extremes all the time, i just want everyone to get along and to have a good time, that's all

and besides, i don't know, i've always been open to new stuff, but linux has much more specific computer knowledge you need to know more of, which most people like you gather naturally over years and years, but you show linux to someone who is mildly inexperienced with technology, or hell afraid of technology, and you've scared him off, for life

i really don't think traumatizing, or making fun of users, who can't get used to such systems is good, or kind, or nice at all, to me this goes against everything humanity has done, i just don't understand why grandma can't browse her facebook and have a good time, as much as the hex editing reverse engineering power user

we gotta cut it out with these barriers man, we gotta stop doing this thing, where we call the other side dumb, or stupid for just, not liking something they find obtuse, it's hurtful, and it puts people off from creating otherwise really cool stuff, it just seems morally wrong to me, to not ensure that everyone can have, a good experience, no matter their status, or level of knowledge

we can make accessible technology, we can make it easy, and hell, i love it when a complicated problem, is solved very easily, or when a really complicated problem, is made easy by a very well made tool

it can be done, and it's a good philosophy to have

i think you guys as a whole, just can't admit, that these things take time to learn - it takes hours if not years, to learn how to do these things, of course you find it easy, if you've been using computers since you were like 10, why not cut the crap out, and honestly, you guys sucked at computers too when you started out, you just don't want to admit it, and i don't care if you were some computer wizard, nobody gives a shit, most people want to learn how to use linux, without having to deal with the tangled up maze of information that comes with it

you COULD'VE given me some pointers, to easy to use linux operating systems, but no, you said that my MIND GOT RAPED

jesus christ guys, instead of helping out, instead of being nice, you just go ahead and you prove all my points, almost instantly

i'm sorry man, why would you ever say something like that, i'm honestly a bit hurt - like i was expecting us to be cool, but this is too much, i'm legit dissapointed

honestly if you told me this in real life, i would walk away from the conversation - like i tell you my thoughts on it, and you just start to insult me like this, why? what does that accomplish?

you guys can live in your bubble if you want, but i don't think linux is there yet

anyway man i just wanted to have a conversation, but i wasn't expecting you to go this way at all, i thought we'd figure things out, find a nice balance, find a nice in between or a nice compromise, to make everyone happy - no let's just, call the other side stupid, jesus, aren't there enough douchebags on the internet? i had way higher expectations overall than this

sorry i'm just confused, and i don't even know why i'm apologizing, but man, the world is meaner than i thought it is i suppose, i was going to make a point here but i don't even feel like continuing it anymore... just, i don't care if people are gonna make fun of me for this post, hell, i don't care... this was just too much for me man, whatever

3 hours ago, ScumCoder said:

Another opinion from mid-2000s.

There is exactly one thing for which Windows is suited better: games. That's all. Everything except gaming is better done in Linux.

I found out about Linux (almost by accident) in 2008, and by 2010 I wasn't even booting my PC into Windows anymore, aside from gaming. Since I don't play many games, I guess I could just remove the goddamn thing from my HDD to free up some space.

And yet, I still need to pull up the man pages everytime I need to make a tarball

7 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i really don't think traumatizing, or making fun of users, who can't get used to such systems is good, or kind, or nice at all, to me this goes against everything humanity has done, i just don't understand why grandma can't browse her facebook and have a good time, as much as the hex editing reverse engineering power user

I actually think that both user groups you mentioned can be satisfied with Linux. A newbie (like your grandma) can have a great time on a user-friendly distro (e.g. Linux Mint, elementary OS) doing basic things like web surfing or using office applications; in fact, I'd go so far as to say that they'd have a better time using Linux. The actual people having problems with Linux are power users that already have everything figured out on Windows (like Ross). They're going to have a hard time because a lot of the more complicated use cases require more hoops to jump through on Linux or simply aren't documented well. I'm not saying this is a non-issue—it definitely is one—, but it's a different thing altogether.

42 minutes ago, ekket said:

I actually think that both user groups you mentioned can be satisfied with Linux. A newbie (like your grandma) can have a great time on a user-friendly distro (e.g. Linux Mint, elementary OS) doing basic things like web surfing or using office applications; in fact, I'd go so far as to say that they'd have a better time using Linux. The actual people having problems with Linux are power users that already have everything figured out on Windows (like Ross). They're going to have a hard time because a lot of the more complicated use cases require more hoops to jump through on Linux or simply aren't documented well. I'm not saying this is a non-issue—it definitely is one—, but it's a different thing altogether.

i think the biggest issue is just the fact that, normally you have have to deal with the sheer amount of choices as far linux goes, and grandma will likely ask her kids to install something for her, so in the worst case scenario, the kids pick something really obtuse, and if not, sure it's okay for really basic stuff

but once grandma starts to wish she could use windows only apps, that's when everything goes downhill i immagine

you can present wine or emulation as a solution, or alternative software, but that's still an extra barrier windows doesn't have to deal with more often than not - setting up such tools might be an overly daunting task for most users, and in some cases, the user itself might just be too used to the original windows tool, and he might just not be willing to adapt (photoshop and gimp)

you pretty much have another reason which kills linux adoption for a lot of users, the alternatives are often just, not what they want really, so why bother with linux they think, if it's more of a hassle, and away they go, back to windows

to me the biggest problem is that, there isn't just one linux os, which makes me go, "yes, everyone should be using this, this is the windows killer \ replacement", it's the wild west as far i can tell, and the fact that the user base is all spread around, makes it a bit more difficult to gather that critical mass, which would allow linux to truly explode as far as the usage goes

with linux it takes some trial and error, in order to find the system you might enjoy the most, and i think in the long term if any support is dropped for your current OS, it can be a huge problem, as it could happen at any time - also most people are not going to be experienced with linux terms, so it's hard for them to even know what XFCE or KDE even mean, without first actually getting their hands on it

i don't know, there are options, i'm not denying that - but you have to know of the options

if you are grandma though, odds are that you know nothing at all, or hell, even the smartest person on the planet, would struggle at first if they just got started out

with windows, you get ripped off out of 200$, but you do get the OS on a CD

i love the fact that linux is free, but if you don't have any PC, you can't really make your own iso - also you need to figure out which tools allows you to save isos to USB, where to get isos's, how to download them in the first place, what is a torrent? what is an archive?

compared to buying a windows cd (which is a total rip off), linux is far more involved to your average joe

i mean you cannot skip the iso to usb step, you can't not just do that, and there's a ton of pieces of knowledge which are required to have beforehand

ask your average joe, or your average school kid, most of them are not gonna be able to do this, they'll just say that it's too complicated, but odds are that most people will have an okay time installing windows, all the difficult steps have been completed beforehand for them

anyway these tiny things do have a large impact, as far as the usage goes, if you don't cover all your fields, then you can only expect the 1.0% to use your OS, that's what linux users are for the most part, we don't have a large parte of the population who can even do any of this

i've seen pre-built laptops with linux on it though, so who knows, maybe the landscape will change in the future, but so far windows is pretty entrenched, linux i think needs something more, it needs that one thing which allows it to stand out, in order to grab the public as a whole

anyway, skipping all this installation stuff, my overall argument was that, it's always a good thing, to ensure that even the power users can have an easy time doing complicated tasks, and it really seems like linux users almost despise, or have some kind of deep hatred for anything with a UI attached to it, and to me that's a huge problem

there's also this odd view that, new users should have to torture themselves, and that nothing should be handed to them, even when it would actually benefit all users as a whole

i should be able to accomplish most tasks by simply clicking a few buttons, i shouldn't have to go through 50 steps, when, linux could handle the first 45, and let me to the last 5 by myself

i shouldn't have to scan a huge list of obscure commands, and just hope to god that i can google the right things, in order to hopefully find what i need - and if i can't find the info which i need, because i don't have an ui, that means that i can't just go by trial and error anymore, i'm pretty much stuck with a problem which i cannot solve

at least with windows, you can just click on a bunch of random buttons, and you might get a result eventually, and linux does have UI based software, but anything more advanced, usually demands you to use the command line

it took me a while to figure out my points again, so i kinda rambled on for a while

2 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

 but once grandma starts to wish she could use windows only apps, that's when everything goes downhill i immagine

That scenario was imagining someone who really is a total newbie with not much experience to warrant the use of Windows apps, so I wouldn't imagine that to be much of an issue anyway.

I do agree with your sentiment on the decentralised nature of Linux being a detriment for mass adoption. It's not really an OS per se, there's a whole community with its schisms and what-not. Someone new to computers definitely isn't going to install a distribution all by themselves, it's usually a tech-savvy relative helping out.

36 minutes ago, ekket said:

That scenario was imagining someone who really is a total newbie with not much experience to warrant the use of Windows apps, so I wouldn't imagine that to be much of an issue anyway.

i mean i kinda got confused when you brought up grandma again, and i wasn't sure where my point was going anymore, i just left like that and i tried to start over again

1 minute ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i mean i kinda got confused when you brought up grandma again, and i wasn't sure where my point was going anymore, i just left like that and i tried to start over again

“Bringing Up Grandma Considered Harmful”

20 minutes ago, ekket said:

“Bringing Up Grandma Considered Harmful”

dammit grandma, ruining forum arguments since 1998

So much division.... At least we can all agree that Vi is much better than emacs

9 minutes ago, Im_CIA said:

So much division.... At least we can all agree that Vi is much better than emacs

help i'm stuck my dog is starving i can't turn it off please someone i can't exit GET ME OUT OF HERE

9 minutes ago, Im_CIA said:

So much division

it's ok

40 minutes ago, Im_CIA said:

So much division.... At least we can all agree that Vi is much better than emacs

Ed is the standard text editor.

7 minutes ago, ekket said:

Ed is the standard text editor.

is this a horror game or is this some kind of weird simulation, are we in the wrong time line?

oh no

OH NO

19 minutes ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

is this a horror game or is this some kind of weird simulation, are we in the wrong time line?

ed is a text editor predating monitors (people used teleprinters back then), so it's very obtuse. I guess you could compare using it to wandering in the dark only being able to see what's right in front of you.

Anyway, this is a great conversation, but it is getting massively off-topic.

2 hours ago, ekket said:

ed is a text editor predating monitors (people used teleprinters back then), so it's very obtuse. I guess you could compare using it to wandering in the dark only being able to see what's right in front of you.

 

Anyway, this is a great conversation, but it is getting massively off-topic.

i think it's fine, the thread itself is too broad \ general, and if anyone else can push the topic into another direction, we can always shift to the new stuff

anyway i don't have anything else to add otherwise

Well this got interesting very quickly... @RaTcHeT302 Has many good points, especially regarding the superiority complex of many of the Linux supporters. (which were very strongly confirmed as existing by @ScumCoder) I grew up with DOS, and am not afraid in the slightest of the CLI, but even I can clearly see the benefit of the GUI for making everything work much easier, and much faster for a user. Even one that knows exactly what they need to do in the command line.

Because of that, I've gotten to the point that I only really recommend LMDE to people looking to start out on Linux after using Windows for a while. Plenty of GUI everywhere and for everything. The biggest thing that people need to learn with it is that you only get your programs from a single app, not not individually from wherever you download them. If you need to add a repo though, that's where it gets complicated. (though not as much so with what comes with LMDE)

Once people get past the learning curve for the repo system, they can usually do anything they want in LMDE, excluding certain Windows stuff. (like most games, or Photoshop) For anyone used to Android as a primary OS, (there's more and more of them every year) Linux is very easy to learn.

I just wish that more games would make a Linux version, as Linux has a significantly lower overhead, causing more system resources to be available for game use. Too bad game designers prefer to use DX12 instead of Vulcan. (despite Vulcan/OpenGL being superior in many ways, and on-par in all the rest)