ROSS'S GAME DUNGEON: SONIC HEROES

[RocketDude]

Oh yeah, another comment: a lot of the "cult of Sonic" weirdness is probably thanks to Ken Penders' run on the Archie Comic's Sonic the Hedgehog comic series, which was also the basis for the Saturday morning cartoon series. It's funny you mentioned not knowing "Sonic's cousin," since the comics gave Knuckles a huge family tree--Penders also really likes Knuckles and the echidnas, for some reason.

[Chrisfratz]

12 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

LUL YOU GUYS ARE ACTUALLY CALLING IT THE SONIC CULT

I personally think it's a fun way to have a laugh at how at times it can feel like one. Especially with how vocal some of the shall we say... village idiots can be.

[RocketDude]

13 hours ago, SomethingOther said:

1. The SatAM cartoon came first; albeit if I recall correctly, the Archie Sonic comics and SatAM were developed concurrently with one another. (Also, SatAM was initially the only cartoon DIC was to produce of Sonic, until ABC shenanigans somewhat forced them to split their cartoon into SatAM and AoStH.) Also, Penders didn't write for the Archie Sonic comics until much later on in it's early life.
2. Most of the Sonic Cult actually hates and rejects Ken Penders, and for good reason: He's a gross piece of shit, and an infamous scumfuck. And this is just scratching the surface of the iceburg that is Penders, believe you me.

 

Did not know that first bit. By "cult of Sonic," I was kind of referring to the weird fanart-y side, though maybe it arose independently of Penders' weirdness.

[BTGBullseye]

On 9/24/2020 at 3:47 PM, Steve the Pocket said:

I doubt any platform holder goes around strongarming publishers into porting specific games to their platform with threats to withhold certification on other games.

Apple sort of tries to do that right now.

[RocketDude]

I suppose there is a sort of sense in that. I.e., "if you don't work with us now, don't be surprised if we don't want to work with you later." Still a bit silly, but it probably discourages publishers taking rain checks on platforms while also potentially generating some sales for the platform owner.

[Igor_Oleynikov]

On 9/23/2020 at 3:23 PM, RaTcHeT302 said:

those loading times are not worth it, plus the game is a god damn eye sore, somehow sonic heroes looks BETTER than a "next gen" game

 

sonic 2006 is not worth it

I cant agree with you.  Sonic heroes has one of worst visual styles and cinematics. Ingame animations are great though. You can fix sonic 06 problems with mods and emulation. Also a genious dude ChaosX currently remaking sonic 06 on unity for pc. Check it out if you have any interest, maybe it can prove my opinion on sonic 06.

[Chrisfratz]

Oh yeah, the modding scene for 06 is starting to boom which is great. I saw one person trying to port some levels from Ninjabread Man to it for some reason. It's neat that you can do it, but sometimes I wonder if he thinks if he should do it.

[Lambda Core]

A few weeks past, and I still find it crazy Ross covered a game I played as a young kid!

Some pointers regarding the game: Sonic Heroes followed the trend of bad PC ports in the early to mid 2000's, and while it isn't unplayable, the hit detection was noticeably worse in spots, and the controls are a bit more slippery - so all that's to say it isn't entirely the game, isn't entirely Ross, it's partly the mediocre PC port.

A few other games that suffered from this: Sonic Adventure, Splinter Cell, Sega GT, Crazy Taxi, GTA 4, Halo and Halo 2.

[kerdios]

4 minutes ago, Lambda Core said:

A few weeks past, and I still find it crazy Ross covered a game I played as a young kid!

That's how I felt when I saw the first Tyrian2k video

[Lambda Core]

5 hours ago, kerdios said:

That's how I felt when I saw the first Tyrian2k video

I take it you're a fair few years older than I am then! I grew up with the Gamecube, so this was really crazy for me to see lol

[Lambda Core]

3 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

yo i grew up on the playstation 2 \ playstation 1 and early 2005 pc games (age of mythology, black & white 2, the i of the dragon, team fortress 2, unreal 2004, a bunch else i can't recall atm)

 

you got any gamecube suggestions? i can emulate stuff nowdays which is neat as hell

i remember when we told other kids, "NO YOU CAN'T PLAY GRAN TURISMO 3 ON PC" and now i feel dumb lol

 

BECAUSE YOU CAN PLAY GRAN TURISMO 3 ON PC

 

Super Mario Sunshine is the obvious pick, it's the main 3D mario of the era, also one of the better 3D Mario games! But in addition I'd recommend Super Monkey Ball 2, Sonic Adventure 2, Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door, Battle for Bikini Bottom (surprisingly good licensed game!), Puyo Pop Fever, Chibi Robo, Wind Waker and if you want a crazier version of the first Metal Gear, the Twin Snakes is a solid pick!

[Lambda Core]

It's definitely up to personal taste, I've loved all of these games, but if they're not your cup of tea, they're not your cup of tea. It sets the scene for most of the Gamecube library, so if none of them suit your fancy, I wouldn't bother too much? I kinda have the opposite effect with the PS2, I never had that growing up so the games don't really interest me too much. Same thing with FPS games, too! Halo was probably the worst example for me, I fell in love with the first three titles in that series, but anything after Bungie's time with it just doesn't capture the same magic unfortunately - feeling more like modern shooters I had zero interest in.

[Lambda Core]

3 hours ago, RaTcHeT302 said:

i actually hated halo 1 and i never got past the start area in halo 2 xD

 

did you ever play oni tho? it's a bungie game, not very well known (it's bad but some of the music is nice)

wish we had more games where you play as a cool martial arts cop tho, it's a neat concept

 

 

if anything i acually enjoyed those dumb call of duty games, i enjoyed call of duty mw3, ww2, advanced warfare and infinite warfare

 

THIS SHIT WAS SO SIIICK, OH MY GOD THIS SCENE WAS SO FUCKING COOOOL

 

THIS PART WITH THE GIANT SPACE SHIPS WAS FUCKING AWESOME

 

Ah okay, my tastes in FPS games are uh... a tad generic I guess. I love Doom, Quake, Unreal, Half-Life, Portal, Team Fortress and Halo. Even then, not even anything after Reach, there's a good chance you'd *like* Halo 4 and 5 if they were on PC, as they don't really feel anything like Halo 1 or 2.

[Lambda Core]

Interesting FPS tastes! Mine I imagine are fairly uncommon, which kinda bites? But I don't play them super often, so I don't really mind all too much.

[cutiepyro]

I'm starting to think that coin is affecting you

[Trar]

Halfway through the video and Ross is making the game look like a frustrating experience. I know that feeling when you put up with frustration in a game because you really like other parts of it, but I think Sonic Heroes would probably end up just pissing me off. Some of it just seems like bad design that's baked into the franchise to an extent.

 

I do like how Ross is asking the hard questions about Sonic, and to the SONIC CABAL at that.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Trar (see edit history)

[Trar]

On 9/24/2020 at 6:58 PM, lice said:

Ross, please don't use the R word (21:31)

Also have to agree with this.

[Kaiosama TLJ]

Well, saying that you covering this game was a surprise is a understatement, I mean, you could've made a episode on the arcade game since it's one of the obscure ones besides Sonic Schoolhouse (that, by the way, was done to death). And since Sonic is the main subject, I have a LOT to talk, so bare with me.

 

At one point I considered myself a Sonic fan. I grew up with the classic games for the Genesis and the cartoon (SatAM), also I torrented the japanese Sonic X with subs because 4Kids sucks. But even then I could say I was a heretic in the whole "cabal" thing, because I still have my own will and was not brainwashed by the "blue hivemind" so to speak.
 

First, let's talk about your experience with the game. I know that you admitted that most of the fails were your fault, but I didn't remember the game being this bad with the physics. And I've played the PS2 version, which they say is the one that's most janky, maybe it's the PC version (that I had no idea it existed by the way) that's even worse.

You asked very interesting questions about Dr. Robotnik/Eggman, but I can only answer you this: His entire endgame goal is actually simplistic, as far as villany goes. He wants to dominate the world and build Eggmanland, which is basically an "ego" metropolis. Yep, he's incredibly egocentric, he even had a Death Star knock-off that was practically his face for crying at loud! He used to put animals inside the robots (and even plants in Sonic CD) to serve as a power source, and I say "used" because most games tend to forget that, lore building in general in this franchise is incredibly inconsistent (even thought it wasn't supposed to be the case). And a fun fact: When Sega was brainstorming the franchise to compete with Mario as their mascot (and toss aside Alex Kidd since he wasn't as popular as a mascot) he was going to be the main character at first, but they scraped that since that would make him way too similar to Mario, which is what they were trying to avoid. Also, he was apparently based on Theodore Roosevelt.

About Amy... I used to hate this character. Actually, I still hate her, but nowadays I feel more pity than hatred because I feel the problem is on the writing more than the character itself. When Amy first appeared she was just a Sonic fangirl, but it was more played for comedy and to be "cute". But then all the games after that just flanderized her to the point of making her a obsessive stalker, to the point where the joke is not even funny anymore. And if you think she's bad in Heroes (where her flanderization started to kick in), she's even worse in Sonic Battle. But this is not a problem exclusive to her, all characters got flanderized as the games went on, even Shadow wasn't too bad in the game he debuted.

 

And speaking of Shadow, another fun fact for you: He was intended to be a one-shot character, but he became so popular (because tryhard edgy characters are popular among nerdy angsty teens) that they decided to bring him back, even though he died in the game he debuted. And well... Even some Shadow fans think that this was a bad idea, not just because he got flanderized, but also because they screwed his backstory in his spin-off game. In any case, if you think he's bad, then I guess you didn't played Freedom Planet, because I find Spade (which is a character that was clearly inspired by Shadow) to be even worse. While Shadow is trying way too hard to be cooler than Sonic, Spade is trying way too hard to be cooler than Shadow, which is a level of tryhard that I thought was impossible to achieve.

But I lost my interest on this franchise a long time ago for many reasons. I stick only with some of the classics but NOT because of nostalgia, it's because Sonic Team lost their touch. You know when a franchise gets stale and don't try to push any innovation at all? Sonic Team did the extreme opposite, and in my opinion it's worse because at least a stale franchise retained some quality. You complained about the team mechanic in Heroes, but that game didn't go too crazy about introducing gimmicks in a attempt to stay fresh. I saw one person saying in a Youtube comment session some time ago (don't remember where and when) that Sonic Team had a "shotgun design" mentality, where they have too many ideas but instead of sticking with some that may work and what is feasible for them to work on, they decide to cram as many as they can in hope that some shots land (like shooting a shotgun at long range), and I can fully agree with that since it really describes the inconsistent quality of the games over the years. Sonic Team always tried to bite more than it can chew.

 

And this mentality also extends somewhat to the writing and characters. Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the storylines they tried to pull off in the 3D games for many reasons. I tried to give them a chance, but they are so pretentious. One reason being that, like you said, the old Sonic games had a universal appeal, but when Sonic Adventure came out... Let's just say they become indecisive about who they wanted to appeal. Remember that you said in the A New Beginning episode that you felt you were witnessing a identity crisis because it tried to have a more serious plot but with characters and writing from a saturday morning cartoon? Also in The Crew episode were they tried to inject a more dramatic story in a game that didn't needed it, and also said story being too bland to even care? Those are the kind of the same feelings I have with this franchise. You can't notice it much from Heroes, since it's one of the few from that time that tries to be aimed more to kids, but the other games tried to push of plots more complex than "defeat Robotnik and save the world", which I woudn't mind if they done it RIGHT (again, "shotgun design"). I would go into specific details, but it would make this post longer than it is, and also SomecallmeJohnny already did many Sonic reviews, including the plots, so I recommend giving his channel a shot. To make it simple, I will say thay many Sonic games that are more story heavy have these elements in common:

 

- Melodrama paired with lack of tone balance that makes you question how someone can take this plot seriously;
- Robotnik/Eggman trying to take control of some eldrich god and/or something beyond his control, and then making you question if is 300 points IQ (and yes, this information is canon) is legit since he's making the same dumb mistake over and over;
- Flanderization over actual character development/growth;
- Introducing a villain (or group of villains) other than Robotnik that a more sane person will forget they exist because of how boring and/or pretentious they are;
- Introducing new charaters that would be either flanderized or forgotten in later games;
- Trying to have a continuity and worldbuilding but doing a really bad job at it; (at least Games Workshop tried to save face saying that any lore inconsistency could be explained as "Imperial propaganda")
- Being way to complex for it's own good, because apparently a good story is all about being complex, and not how it's premise is executed and how likeable are the characters;
- Some elements of the fanbase still wondering why the rest of the world "underappreciates" these misunderstood "masterpieces" (especially SA2), even thought there's more than enough reasons why. (others just enjoy them like people enjoy The Room, because they are really good meme material all things considered)

 

It may not look like it but like Ross I can be kind of easy to please, I only get critical based on what said piece of media tries to be. And since Sonic Team wanted to write more complex stories and characters, I will judge them as such. In retrospective, I think the only time I really liked the plot and didn't mind Sonic speaking was the saturday morning cartoon where he was a freedom fighter, and even I can admit that show wasn't perfect. (*cough* Antoine *cough*)

 

On 9/23/2020 at 4:50 PM, Steve the Pocket said:

(...)

 

On Shadow: I think he would work better if they intentionally wrote him as someone who's trying too hard to be cool.

 

(...)

 

Like this?

 

 

On 9/23/2020 at 4:31 AM, RocketDude said:

Okay, fair enough!

 

Also, re: Tom White being Peter Chimaera...is that really true, or is this just a joke? I feel like Peter Chimaera's real identity is a total mystery, just like that of My Immortal's author.

 

It is true, Tom himself said he was Peter in many occasions. It's no secret now.

 

On 9/24/2020 at 2:16 PM, Im_CIA said:

what's the difference between eggman and dr robotnik

 

Localization. To be more specific, Dr. Eggman was his name in the japanese version, but the american version changed his name to Dr. Robotnik because they felt that Eggman wasn't intimidating enough, much like the case with M. Bison/Vega in the Street Fighter series, but less confusing.

 

However, when the Adventure series came along, they decided to merge the two names, making Dr. Eggman his alias and Dr. Robotnik his surname. His real name by the way became Dr. Ivo Robotnik.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Kaiosama TLJ (see edit history)

[Civilized Ape]

On 9/24/2020 at 2:16 PM, Im_CIA said:

what's the difference between eggman and dr robotnik

They are the same character. Eggman is what he was always called in Japan, Dr. Robotnik was what he was called in the rest of the world. In Sonic Adventure 1, they decided to just call him "eggman' and discard the name "robotnik".

[Mira]

17 hours ago, Civilized Ape said:

They are the same character. Eggman is what he was always called in Japan, Dr. Robotnik was what he was called in the rest of the world. In Sonic Adventure 1, they decided to just call him "eggman' and discard the name "robotnik".

He still refers to himself as "Robotnik" in that game IIRC, it's just his enemies who call him "Eggman".